Night of the Vampire Mafia: Happily Ever After

[UncertainJakutten]

Well, that sure as hell wasn't clear in what you said. As for not hunting scum, you are so full of shit your eyes are brown. Just because I've been busy doesn't mean I haven't been doing the best I can. I've been providing a fair amount of reads. Do I have a stupid list on every player in the game? No, that's a stupid way to do things. Will get to those ISOs sometime this evening.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

##Vote Dormio
I think I'm willing to keep following this case, considering how yesterday ended. The way he trailed onto the LLD wagon does not look good. In the post where he switched his vote, a majority of his points against both Lambda and me seem simultaneously forced and minimal. His Lambda points mainly just seem to cover what's "weird" about her rather than scummy (his mention of Hourai which I already pointed out especially), and they even border on IIoA near the end. I am finding it difficult to consider his reasons for voting Lambda to even be a case. Regardless, both of Dormio's attacks in that post continue the trend of his cases coming off as weak shotgun attacks, and I resent the implied notion that I was trying to get people to stop discussing Bardiche's gambit when I was trying to get people to look in more directions than just the gambit, not to stop looking at Bardiche's gambit entirely. There is a difference between the two, for fuck's sake. It looks like he wanted to support both wagons, but lacked solid cases on either of us. It is also interesting that despite seemingly choosing to compare the two possibilities, Dormio jumped on the wagon that had more support and was arguably easier to ride on at the time. Obviously Town would do this too if they thought Lambda looked the worst, but considering that Dormio seemed to suspect both Lambda and myself in his post, it makes me rather wary. I second Bardiche's request for Dormio to inform us of the turning point that made him pick LLD over myself.

My opinions D1 tunneling on UK are still a thing, by the way. I don't particularly feel like restating them, but they can be observed here so people know I haven't actually dropped them.

Comments on the rest of the Lambda Wagon:

• Definitely willing to see PX lynched now. His vote on Lambda basically seemed to be relying on the points of others. When he returned, most of his comments about his Lambda vote were just "everything else has already been said by people and/or Bard", and considering that the post where he originally voted Lambda looked a lot like it was utilizing Bard's points as a springboard, it appears to me that his case against Lambda was a classic case of parroting being used to get a townie lynched. What's worse is that he never really had any other opinions on who was scum near the end of the day. PX. Now that Lambda is dead, who do you want lynched, and why do you think they are scum?
  
• capt.h's late-day actions seem somewhat odd, which irks me. Considering the way he implied he was going to dig up dirt on LLD and myself in post #238, it seems odd that his next post would just jump on to the Lambda wagon and not give opinions on me. I was under the impression that he was re-reading myself and Lambda because we were both major targets at the time, and as such I am curious where capt.h's vote would have been had he not come in late in the day where voting for the wagon he preferred to see lynched was ideal. Would it have still been on Lambda, or would he have been voting Schezo? I'm having trouble reading capt.h from what he has posted so far and I believe it is making me rather wary of him, which is why I want more from him. As is, I can't tell if he had townie intent in voting Lambda or if he was taking advantage of a growing wagon, but circumstances around his vote are making me consider the latter.
  
• I'm having trouble reading UK's vote on Lambda as scum-intended due to a lack of Dormio's flip. It looks to me like she just switched her vote out of frustration after Lambda constantly deflected her pressure. If Dormio is town as well as Lamdba, then I can't particularly see what scum would have to gain from switching off of a solid stance on one townie just to join a wagon on a player who less people had turned their attention to at that point. As such, I'm not reading UK's switch to Dormio as scummy unless Dormio flips scum. This isn't to say I'm clearing her, I just... don't really consider her jump on Lambda to be a scumtell from the information we have. Though actually, even in the case of a Dormio scum-flip, I would have trouble buying that UK and Dormio hard bussed eachother all ED1, so even then I might just figure that her jump onto Lambda was legitimately based on emotion. I've found myself agreeing with most of her other play so far.
• As for Bard... why are people attacking him again? His case on Lambda was reasonable and I don't see scum intent in it. Shadoweh's attack on him looks a lot like paranoia to me.

I am pretty sure that I have a fairly large amount of posts attacking me right now (mainly from the same people), so instead of taking the time to go through them and write a bunch of response paragraphs that don't really get us anywhere, I'm going to ask the people to suspect me to use bulletpoints to ask me the questions and/or points they want to see me respond to. This post is long enough as is.

Not really interested in continuing to go after Shadoweh at this point since my previous attack was mainly a D1 case I was trying to use to get responses from her, and now that we have a flipped wagon I find that there are more pressing issues than the way I was reading her D1 behavior (the PX case was similiar before Lambda's flip, but he pretty much ignored me, so). She doesn't feel as shifty to me today, either. I know there were a lot of questions about my case on her, though, so I'll still answer those if they are pointed out to me. I'll say right now that I didn't intend to push Shadoweh/Dormio as a scumteam, and that her switch to Dormio just reminded me of BGoM ED1 because it looked like she was giving up on a case without warning to press an easier target.

tl;dr Top scumpick is still Dormio, but PX and capt.h look iffy to me as well and need to elaborate on their stances, PX moreso.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Ehhh, in hindsight, I don't really mean to say that UK's jump on Lambda was based on emotion.

@_@ I don't really know what the terminology I'm looking for here is, though. I'm kind of tired of writing at this point.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Okay, uh.

BASICALLY, what I meant to say is that I was under the impression UK's displeasure with Lambda was amplified by the way Lambda was dodging the constantly dodging the questions of both UK and Bard, because, well, I would probably be irritated if somebody dodged my questions. <_< This isn't to say that what Lambda was doing wasn't scummy, but the circumstances of UK's vote made me think she was snapping back at Lambda. I don't know how UK actually was thinking in the situation, though. I guess it'd be nice if UK explained how that went down.

... I wrote the UK and Bard parts of my post last, when my brain was fried. I think it shows.

[UncertainJakutten]

Um...hmm...well, I did think she was scum, and her continued refusal to answer my questions just cemented it in my mind. And yes, I was getting irritated with her, though I kind of channeled that into trolling her slightly by just switching my vote without (additional) explanation. So yeah, I probably did contribute to her response which was bad on my part. The meta fight also irritated me because she was being so hypocritical and dragging it out when it was a PRETTY MUCH USELESS POINT.

[Bardiche]

Zakeri, you realise I was referring to Schezo x Zakeri Scum OTP based on the joke we invoked regarding meta, right? I never said I thought Dormio was 100% Confirmed Town, in fact you'll see I actually look at him rather unfavourably.

[WHMZakeri]

I actually meant to say "100% Confirmed Scum" not town in that post, in case anyone was wondering why I was trying to ask somebody to make a scum case on someone they thought was town.

Still, I hate that phrase because of the complete arrogance associated with it, and I blame spending all day arguing and correcting typos for the fact that I even took it seriously.

But yeah, Meta sucks. Mafia is actually one of the few times where my inability to notice details in individual behavior that's not as blunt as "Always votes the Mod first, regardless of alignment." actually makes me feel handicapable.

[capt. h]

Well, I finished my rereads.

First off, Schezo, I would very much appreciate your explanation for why you think Dormio is scum with Huh What. Your Dormio case is a little old and it would be helpful if you updated it. Your original Dormio case was

Dormio: Lot's of people have given him scrutiny that I can see for awful votes, crazy theories, not matching words with actions.  And he still disagrees with others who say that even if pregame didn't count officially, votes made show intent on what you think.  Which is more bad logic to add to his actions not equaling his words.  I'd buy the Dormio case but I want to see huh what's first.

I would like you to expand this case - could you show me where you consider his logic bad and his actions not equal to his words? I do think you are suspicious, but that may be a content thing - I'll say right now that I don't agree with the current Huh What cases, and your Dormio case needs more explanation.




When I read Huh What, the only thing I find suspicious about him is the way he deflects attacks. Otherwise, I'm having trouble understanding the cases on him. Making people make cases on eachother strikes me as a town move, and Kiro's claim that if forces town to only focus on the first seven players only makes sense to me if Huh what wasn't himself one of the first seven. I get a fairly town read from him.




When I read Dormio, I almost immediately notice how reportery, passive, and non-commital he is.

Bleh.
So basically, I can't have either of my Kitten lynches.

Dormio, I don't recall your push for a K4U lynch. Honestly, it barely looked like you were even pushing for your UK lynch though. Besides "confirmation bias" and the fact that you thought UK playing it safe during her confirmation phase, I don't think there was much of a case as the day goes on. I would like you to explain your stances in light of recent events. Right now, I think you are fairly likely to be scum.

##Vote Dormio




UK - I dislike the way you made fun of the cases people threw at you in the early day. I don't think I like your LLD case - mind you I liked Bard's case enough to vote LLD, but you kind of hopped onto Bard's case with a meta argument that I have trouble seeing since I don't know LLD's meta. Most of your play today was defensive, and I would like to hear your cases. I think your Dormio case should be restated. I think you are suspicious.

Oh, right, one thing I take issue with. 8 of those "ten hours" I had to think about it were spent sleeping. When I woke up and got online, about a half hour before deadline, there was almost NO ONE AROUND that I could feasibly asked to have changed the wagon.

According to the "last active" logs, Dormio, myself, UK, and Bardiche were all around at the time of the lynch.




Hourai - While we do have your reads, it would be nice to have the specific things your scumpicks did that you found scummy. although I do like your Schezo case.

Schezo, I find some disconnect and a little fencesitting on his opinion regarding Kiro. In the same paragraph in which you call him townier looking, you add at the end that you don't want to touch him until a flip? This looks like a way to set up a case for later, but not for now? I would like some clarification on this, because, as of right now, you have the wiggle room to go back and forth between an opinion of him based on a vague statement, which I don't like in town. What kind of flips?

His thing about Dormio looks really weak, as it is unoriginal, restating a lot of things, and does not explain how he is scummy and scum motivated, instead of just bad, and gives the feeling of being able to move his vote there later in the future if he needs it.

##Vote: Schezo

Chaore seems to be punishing bad play, but his train of thought seems logical enough that I won't make a big deal about it for now. I would like scum opinions on people other than the arguably easy cases of Dormio and PX.

I would very much appreciate updated reads on Schezo and Chaore. Especially with Chaore, I would like to see examples of where Chaore pushes bad play as opposed to scummy play. My read of you is suspicious, but it's due to the lack of content rather than the content itself.

[UncertainJakutten]

Sure, I'll get to restating the Dormio case when I actually ISO him, but the short of it was that he attacked me in a vague manner that sounded good but had no real meaning, and when pressed just restated things that sounded pretty without substance. And the fact his contributions yesterday were essentially arguing with me.

Secondly, who reads the last active logs anyway? It seems like a dumb and unreliable way to do things

Thirdly, my hop onto LLD was more than a meta argument and I'd appreciate you not misrepping me, thank you.

Foruthly, at this point I'm falling enough behind so I might just want to do a full reread, which would be better done tomorrow morning because I reread better in the morning. I'll see if I can do those ISOs after World of Darkness though, when I should be in a good mood.

[capt. h]

Secondly, who reads the last active logs anyway? It seems like a dumb and unreliable way to do things

Actually, I do, once in a great while. It's good when you want to see which players aren't here at all, and which players are on the site but lurking anyway. I happen to like it, especially with lurkers, because it's not something I expect most players actively think about when they play.

I don't use it often, but it has its place.

[UncertainJakutten]

OK. If players don't think about it, then how is that a counterpoint to what I said? I still wouldn't have that knowledge. Also, I need to be good and stop checking the game until I'm done with WoD >=[!

[Bardiche]

Zakeri, I'd like to note I don't think Dormio is 100% scum. There's a reason my vote isn't on him and why I'm just asking him for clarification of his motives.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

I don't really believe that taking activity times seriously is proper form. Sometimes, people can have the time to read new posts on the forum but not have the time and/or the mindset to commit to writing a Mafia post.

[capt. h]

OK. If players don't think about it, then how is that a counterpoint to what I said? I still wouldn't have that knowledge. Also, I need to be good and stop checking the game until I'm done with WoD >=[!

If players aren't thinking about their last active logs, then it means that their actions are performed on the assumption that no notices them.

Basically, they can be used to smoke out the active lurkers, players that definitely have time to play the game, but are choosing not to post anyway.

For example Hourai's last active time was about 25 minutes ago. Thus, the fact that he hasn't posted in mafia since day 1 is far more suspicious than if he had not been active for say, 20 hours, when he made his last post. Because we know he had time to check the forum, and choose not to post in mafia anyway.

[capt. h]

Derp spelling and grammar

EBWOP:

If players aren't thinking about their last active logs, then it means that their actions are performed on the assumption that no one notices them.

Basically, they can be used to smoke out the active lurkers; players that definitely have time to play the game, but choose not to post anyway.

For example Hourai's last active time was about 25 minutes ago. Thus, the fact that he hasn't posted in mafia since day 1 is far more suspicious than if he had not been active for say, 20 hours, when he made his last post. Because we know he had time to check the forum, and decided not to post in mafia anyway.

[Bardiche]

@Capt H: I will inform you after game why holding this kind of behaviour to players is strictly unfair and unhelpful regardless of alignment of either yourself or the player. For now, I can say that you should focus on matters at hand rather than use a forum feature to grant you a game 'edge', for all that you may consider it thus.

I was writing some long, ranting post here in further response to Zak but I can't do it without going on and on about how weak it is to claim Dormio town because I am supposedly singling out those who are not "typographically elegant"... But you know what? Fuck it. If that's what you want to lynch me for then go right the fuck ahead. If that's how you guys want to play, with "I'll ignore you :U", "people are town because you consider them scum!", then please do me a favour and lynch me the fuck already, because that is not a game I signed up to play.

Since I did sign up for Mafia and I don't feel like huge ragefests I'm going to just pretend Zakeri's piece on that doesn't exist and that he just considers me scum after UK, for which I submit a request for particulars on why this is so. If it includes the words "typographical elegance", then spare yourself the effort as I won't read it.


@Schezo: I see your point better now. I still disagree with your interpretation, but I follow completely how you arrived at your conclusion, so I'm not inclined to hold it against you. Huh What has posted more since the pre-game. Is there anything in his recent responses that make you feel he is scum, and if so could you motivate why they would serve a scum Huh What profile? I don't believe I've seen your reasons for a case on Huh What beyond his activity in the pre-game phase.

[Kiro]

I have no brevity. Rejoice! TL:DR: Dropping HW, voting PX, really want to vote K4U.

Kiro: You're going to have to rephrase this, because I'm parsing it as "Because HW tried to extract opinions out of people who were posting." In fact, don't bother, because I'm sure no matter how you phrase it, I don't see any scum intent behind it without it devolving into the too townie fallacy. I also fail to see how HW's actions was what caused the focus to narrow down to the people who were posting,

That is indeed how I imagined some people would see it. I'm not sure if his #64 falls into the realm of Too Townie though. Whatever his alignment, I don't think he was trying "too hard" on that post. It was part of my initial case, which you asked for disclosure on, but I think so many people are disagreeing on it there, that it's up to player interpretation and I will label it as null.

I am a little confused as to Schezo pushing the above as the primary reason for his HW's Day 2 vote in #326 without really mentioning any of the later parts of Day 1. I can agree with his point, but I want to see an update to that read after HW's latest stuff especially considering HW is going for Dormio again. Why are you in particular still going for HW before Dormio if you think both are Scum? To me, it seems like your reasoning is that you think HW will slip away on Town cred if Dormio flips Scum today? Can't truly happen due to our Night 2 mechanic. How does HW attempting to bus one of his buddies as early as true Day 1 really help him all the way to endgame? You realize how much Town cred he would have gotten in Day 1 only to make it so much more likely he'd be put near the top of "possibly converted players" by Day 3? He'd be dropped down to neutral or maybe even lower than that. All at the seemingly unnecessary early loss of one of his buddies. Based on new posts, I want to see if HW is still your vote for today.

HW's #331 says all the good stuff and it does soften my Scum read on him quite a bit. He makes all the notable valid updates to his Dormio case, reasonable suspicion on PX and a good point on capt.h. The Shadoweh clarification I'm a bit unhappy about. You wanted to propose a weak meta based suspicion on her just to get reactions from her? Didn't really look like it at the time. It was a poor attack and thusly, she reacted negatively to you as well. Your statement is a backtrack but as much as I want to get on your case about it, I don't think it's that major of one because you didn't really pursue her further or vote her at all. I think your latest post is solid and am going to drop my case on you for now.

Chaore: The reason I put forth that LLD vs Dormio comparison was because I was on the HW wagon and needed to have something to my name in regards to a possible flip from one of them before I woke up from deadline, and missed. The "not smart Scum play" point is where I tried to balance the WIFOM from someone doing Refuge in Audacity with the circumstances currently in the game. Basically, there is no need for Scum to be outlandish in Day 1. Especially in this game. Stay low, have the field sort of reset in Day 3 and then work from there. That's how I decided on rather putting Dormio over LLD. Dormio by comparison was not outlandish, but bumbling and that made him more likely to be Scum to me. Oh, where's your Day 2 vote? Suddenly, my ok read on you has turned into a not-so-ok read.

Shadoweh asked what my opinions were on the later 7 so that's what follows here. As for her, she became a little harder to figure out with the temporary rage on Bard and also possesses no vote now. But ugh, I can see her as Town being like that due to stress. Same as Chaore then.

While Hourai's case on Schezo didn't go anywhere, I didn't think it was a bad vote as he outlined the one issue I currently have with Schezo. That's enough for me to leave him alone for now.

While I do agree that the cases themselves on Kiro are bad, I found Kiro himself fairly suspicious, and I plan to do a read-through of him tonight.

Despite this not seeming to make any logical sense, I am going to parse it as you having a bad feeling about me then. Why you decided to even bring this up, I'm not sure. Regarding you, I initially thought your change to LLD felt Town even if it turned out misguided, but it was a bit sudden now that a few people have pointed it out. And your predecessor's vote was on Bard for anger at his gambit, then me as a prod. Not really much for scumhunting early on, but I think we expected Dorian to be demotivated before the game even began. Let's see what you got for us later.

PX isn't around, K4U isn't around. They along with Zakeri were the people I was leaning towards possible lurkerscum. At least Zak now has Day 2 content which I can at least see Town effort from even if I'm not sure the continued UK case can go anywhere or is correct. PX literally just parroted Bard and bandwagoned on LLD. Could it be lazy Townie? Yes it could. But ergh is it bad, and definitely worse than Dormio. K4U has nothing past my rage point. Argh, if I really want to go for gut, I think K4U is one of the Scum. Minor things like appealing that she tried to be as fair as possible in her rereads is the infamous ScumKilga tell of buttering me up and boy does it make me nervous from my Townie perspective. The other part is the comment about the Dormio fakevote thing. Feels like a minor cheerleading of the Dormio wagon that was picking up around midday which is bad news if Dormio flips Town. Could I get anywhere with a K4U wagon today if she posts minimally or not at all? Probably not. I will state that she is my top case at the moment, but I can't in good conscience vote her until she returns. I do want her to note this when she rereads later. In the meanwhile, I believe I have settled with PX as my second choice for worse-than-Dormio's effort and straight parroting onto a mislynch wagon. After that, possibly a toss-up on Schezo and capt.h. Future points will probably shift my opinion on these 4. As troublesome as Dormio's trying to catch up and post is, I still think he's probably Town because he has looked like too easy of a mislynch target since the game began.

##Unvote Huh What
##Vote PX

@mods: Please give us a status update on K4U and whether she will continue to play or not if she goes past her prod deadline.

[UncertainJakutten]

GUESS WHAT WENT UNTIL 1 AM, LEAVING ME WITH AN HOUR OF WORK WORK TO DO MEANING THAT THERE IS NO CHANCE IN HELL ISOS ARE HAPPENING!

(I'll reread tomorrow morning and give a full post on who I think is scum outside of Dormio. I swear for reals. Today was really awkward because of things going wrong)

[capt. h]

Sorry Kiro, I didn't have a strong read on you on reread so I didn't bring it up. I decided that a lot of your early game behavior was null - for example the joke vote and the waiting to see if Shadoweh would flip were both null tells to me. After the apology post, I wasn't able to get a solid read on you. Most of what you say sounds town to me right up until you explain your vote; I'm not sure I like your voting patterns or at least the explanations behind them. I've already stated that I disagree with the Huh what cases from yesterday, and I don't know what to think of this new case on PX.

From 219:

PX reads like lazy. Votes UK, has to be convinced that UK's Bard suspicion was fake and throws the second vote on LLD? Despite it all, I don't see how the vote on LLD fits into a Scum PX intent. He has none of his own weight behind that vote so if LLD actually flips today, I think people would be on PX regardless of what LLD flipped as. Feels more Townie.

I would like to know what changed your town PX read to a scum PX read since this post. Right now, I'm undecided on your read, which is why I didn't bring it up with the others.

[Shadoweh]

Bard, I apologize if that offended you, it's not what I intended. I just can't answer your questions about other people when the only ones I think I've had a dialogue with are Town and I'm tired of us tearing each other apart. I don't think this argument about active times is productive either. I agree Zak should outline his suspicions of you better.

Zak, have you lost it?

I've actually been giggling a lot lately, so if I've gone mad, it's certainly not the rage version.

Oh, okay, you really have lost it. How does your scumsuspicion of Bard relate to his early game play? Same goes for suspicions of UncertainKittan. If I understand your case on both of them it revolves around the wagon itself. I'm not sure what your scum meta is, but if it involves going off-topic to rage about game concepts I'd say you're playing to it. I'm not saying your case is invalid, but you're playing a little oddly to be taken seriously.

Schezo: Your suspicion of huh what and Dormio being scum together is based on them attacking each other? What do you find individually bad about Dormio though? Scumminess by association is too easy to fake.

This is really irritating me. There is a noticable lack of PX, Dormio and Hourai in this thread. The same goes for K4U, but at least I know why she's not here and I'm sure it'll be fixed one way or the other. The rest of you, what's your excuse? GET IN HERE. I'm still waiting for a UK reread for today, and I'll be quite cross if it's more disparaging of people's ability to play. That won't help us catch scum.

[Pesco]

Arrangements for K4u's replacing are in place should she declare it.

[Kitten4u]

I have the eye of the tiger and my brain is still lost somewhere on Planet Kitten.  WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?  So I don't have to put this disclaimer on everything I type, I have very little confidence in my ability to read right now, so let me know if I missed something.  The only reason I'm even bothering to post this is for out of game reasons that are important to me.

Kitten4u! Do you still maintain that your case on Dormio, as you presented on Day One, is 100% Valid? I need this question answered before I can make a case on you.

Short answer: yes.
It's not a very strong point, but between that and "what huh what said" it made him pretty suspicious.  I realize that based on comments I can now actually understand that I have been too vague.  I'll get to that in a minute.

I mean, you ask us "why are you posting", meaning that you believe all gameplay aspects to be invalid, right? Yet you're the one that tries to call me out for not using fakevotes.

Quote me on where I said this because I don't even see where I even implied it.  I said that posting this much during the confirmation phase was disrespectful to the mod and gaming the system and that I wasn't going to post during the confirmation phase because it made me feel dirty.  Considering I was actively using the stuff that happened in the confirmation phase in my reads and criticizing Kiro for not doing so immediately I don't even understand where you got this from.  Gameplay elements are ALWAYS RELEVANT.  Especially votes, which have more meaning than just getting someone lynched.

Anyway, back to those specifics on why Dormio is scum.  Let's start with the huh what posts I liked so much.  Have I mentioned I like his posts lately?

In case what I was getting at wasn't clear enough already, I'd like to point out that even though Dormio's "theory" about Bard shooting a townie and have his buddy bus him could be applied to any one of Dormio, PX and UK to make them look like Bard's buddy. Only Dormio chose to apply it to the one who is probably the towniest of the three.

Seriously. <_<

UK: Really? I'm reading it as Scum Durmio pushing bad scum-motivated cases that link people together

@ Dormio: See #64. As far as I'm aware, all you did was sidestep the question by implying it was pointless in #66.

I suppose it goes without saying that I consider HW's question in 64 completely valid, helpful and not at all scummy like some people seem to think it is.

Put into Kitten4u words,  I felt Dormio was scummy because he didn't really seem to care about finding scum (as I said in the bottom of my post).  This manifested itself in a case that I think he doesn't really believe in.  This is evidenced by how weak the push was and that he didn't even consider it worth voting for.  That's why the lack of fakevote bothered me so much.  Even if the vote wouldn't actually push her towards a lynch it has another meaning.  There was so much apathy I couldn't believe he actually thought UK was scum.

This was from ED1.  I consider this pretty good for an ED1 case.  I don't really know why people are screaming at me for finding his lack of fakevote suspicious, but I'm going to blame that on me for being too vague.  Hopefully this clears things up.

I have more to add to this now, because I am seriously regretting not voting him at deadline yesterday.  There is no push for a UK lynch yesterday at all.  There's not even a push for me.  There isn't a push for PX who he also says is scummy and he never bothers to say anything about anyone else.  There is no attempt to scum hunt here.  Hell, even at the end of the day I can't even tell if he's calling HW scummy.  If it weren't for the vote I wouldn't know if he thought LLD was scummy either.  And unless I'm missing something his content today has been a grand total of nothing.  I really can't believe he cares about finding scum at all.

##Vote Dormio

And before people ask, yes the lack of fakevote bothers me.  No, I don't consider it damning.  It was an ED1 case and I felt like the lack of fakevote really showcased what was bothering me.  As usual, it's not the exact actions that I look at, but what I see behind them.

And Dormio, that half answers my question I guess.  Does this mean that as of post 73 you thought UK was worse and would have voted her?


Now for Kiro.  I really wish that people would stop doing irritating, unhelpful things on D1 because it totally screws with my mind.

I don't care if you say you're fair or not. Why are you appealing to me that you are? If I think you aren't, I will call you out on it

That's exactly what I thought you were doing and I thought you were wrong.  So I stated that and pointed out where you were wrong and reasked the questions from my previous post that you hadn't answered yet.  I was a little frustrated by that because last game a few of my questions (that I considered perfectly fair and valid)  never got answered presumably because you and capth considered them unfair.  I really didn't want that to happen again, so I said you were wrong and stated why.  Why is this a problem?

Namely, I disagree with your reasoning that choosing to wait until we knew whether Bard?s vig was real is scummy

I agree and after reading his response I realized how stupid this point was and retract it completely.

and I disagree with your conclusion that Kiro using a joke vote in the standard joke vote phase is scummy. I understand why you don?t consider it optimal play, but joke voting immediately after the non-standard confirmation phase and wanting to know whether a vig is real or not before commenting on it both strike me as null tells; I myself may have done the joke vote regardless of allignment, and I would definitely have waited on the vig.

I suppose that's nice for you.  I read it as scummy for similar reasons that I considered Dormio scummy: apathy.  Lots of ED1s are incomplete.  Before last game I didn't even typically check in until 24 hours later and I know I'm not the only one.  There was good stuff there and stuff that he apparently had opinions on, but didn't bother to comment on until called out.  I find this suspicious.  The trolling excuse isn't really satisfying to me...but this post reads as genuine to me, so I'm willing to sigh and call it null.

I don't have much to say beyond that.  His later posts don't impress me, but they don't make me hate him either.  Not willing to lynch him anymore at this point.


Shadoweh asked for my read on Schezo at some point iirc.  I think he's town.  I don't agree with a lot of the things he says, but he doesn't really smell like scum!Schezo to me.

As for other people, I dislike capth's hop onto the LLD wagon for reasons people have already mentioned.  Sorry, I'm getting kind of tired, so I'll probably start to be a bit more vague here.  If you need clarification ask for it.  The thing that bothers me the most is that he had no prior suspicion of LLD and he didn't mention Dormio, who was also a valid wagon, at all.  He sort of mentioned HW I guess by saying he disliked the way LLD had attacked him, but more mention on HW would have been nice too.  Willing to lynch him.

PX is a thing, but I don't think he's scum.

My town read on UK is faltering a bit.  Not willing to lynch her, but I don't like her interactions with the LLD wagon.  I am now uncertain leaning town.

Bard and HW are still looking pretty town to me.  I'm really liking Zak's posts as well, so I think he's town.  Shadoweh still looks town. 

Kiro, Hourai and Chaore are uncertainties for me.

I think that's everyone.  Sorry, I don't really have the energy to elaborate.


And other comments.  I'm not real happy with the LLD wagon.  I feel like the only points that wasn't "LLD is LLD" are her weirdness with Shadoweh and trying to declare her scum because she wasn't angry enough when she seemed pretty angry to me, and her unwillingness to elaborate on HW.

@Zak Re: my unvote at the end of the day.
Yeah.  I hope I can ask all of you to trust my character as a person enough that you would believe me when I say I wouldn't make something like this up?  It's not due to lack of effort that I wasn't able to type up a decent post in the second half of D1.  I was having a lot of trouble understanding the posts, and I felt like it would be bad form to vote for someone when I barely had any idea what was going on.  I regret not moving to Dormio now, but hindsight and all that. 

Warning - while you were typing 5 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
I'm out of gas.  I will not be addressing the cuts because I have not read them.  I don't think I physically CAN right now.  Anyway, yes, I will be replacing out.  Affinity said I could hydra with whoever replaced me, so I can still answer questions then.  Thanks for putting up with me long enough for me to get this out.  Sorry I can't stick around.

@Mod: To make it official, I am indeed requesting a replacment.

[Pesco]

Conqueror hydra-replaces Kitten4u effective immediately. Only Conqueror will be posting.

[Conqueror]

Hi. Confirming.

Posting just to cut PX.  :trollface:

Real post will come tomorrow once I'm not feeling half-asleep.

[Pesco]

Boat Count

PX (2) - Bardiche, Kiro
UncertainKitten (1) - Zakeri
Dormio (3) - UncertainKitten, Huhwhat, captH
Huhwhat (1) - Schezo

Not voting: Everyone else

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
30.5 hours remain

[PX]

What was up with that vote following me, did you ever explain that? Of all the people on LLD's wagon, you were the only one that didn't quite bother ever stating any reasons, or sufficiently good reason that they stuck to mind. Jog my memory, why were you on LLD again? What was up with the weird votes following me?

Alright! Take two on this post! That's what I get for deleting it. Count this as rage.

I was skimming with limited time and saw LLD's post as strange. She cleared UK by calling the wagon "laughable", copying only Dormio's reasons for voting UK, when he wasn't even voting for her, and using an objective read to clear her. And then she uses another objective read to call Shadoweh scum if she doesn't die to a fake vig. And then proceeds to vote Bardiche. I wanted her to do a better post.

As for why I continued voting her at the end, do you want me to rehash what everybody said that I agree with? Otherwise, her scum hunting really seems like a tactic that would aid scum a lot more than town, since it consists of "Look at this. Something is wrong. Do you see anything?", then waiting for someone to post an actual case. This would allow her to jump on with that reason easily.

NEXT

I'd prefer if people would stop focusing on only the people on the LLD wagon. Since it wasn't a hard lynch, scum would have no reason to jump on the most popular town wagon unless one of their scum buddies was a counter wagon.

NEXT

I really like this Huh What case.

I was trying to get people to look in more directions than just the gambit, not to stop looking at Bardiche's gambit entirely. There is a difference between the two, for fuck's sake

I myself am not particularly fond of all the people throwing themselves at Bard's shot before Shadoweh has even flipped. With the exception of  the moderator and Bardiche himself, nobody knows whether or not Shadoweh was actually shot until Affinity gets here and comments. Attacking Bard for how his shenanigans are scummy on paper is incredibly easy to do, and does not require the effort that needs to be put into actually making a case. Those who have no true opinions other than their vote on Bard are taking the easiest route possible while not providing any real contribution to the game, and I'd go as far to say they might as well not have any real "vote" at all because they're essentially using Bard as a tool to coast by until Affinity returns with our results.

Right, but this quote looks like you're saying that people might as well not vote Bard for his gambit, which would leave us right back at RVS bullcrap cases that happen in every game.

I'm sad that Shadoweh stopped mentioning Huh What. SHADOWEH, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF HUH WHAT CURRENTLY?

Durrmio's pre-game was super derp and I could see Town doing. Now to see what he's been doing since then.
Okay, he's not really looking scum to me, but I'd like to see him start scum hunting.

And at this point I'm really failing to read and think properly. Currently stuck between Huh What and Dormio, but Huh What looks the better of the two due to :effort: and :scumhunting: . Will vote Dormio if he fails to produce. Reads are susceptible to change when I can properly read tomorrow.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

I'd prefer if people would stop focusing on only the people on the LLD wagon. Since it wasn't a hard lynch, scum would have no reason to jump on the most popular town wagon unless one of their scum buddies was a counter wagon.

I read this as "I am scum and my buddy was on the LLD wagon as well".

I'm pretty sure you misunderstood what I meant in the second quote. Not much else to respond to because, well, you barely have a case on me. <_<

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Actually, fuck it.

I am realllllllly tempted to switch to PX now. Attempting to lead us away from analyzing the flipped townie wagon is just argh. I'm going to have to re-read him tomorrow and decide if I want him dead even more than I want Dormio dead.

[Conqueror]

Actually, I lied about waiting until tomorrow. I ended up writing a quick post anyway and want questions answered when people decide to pop in. A lot of this is from a quickish read, so ask me if you need any clarifications.

Dammit Dormio stop posting in Hatate Quest so I can ISO you properly.

First off, I'll just go ahead and say that I disagree with K4U about Dormio.
I think Dormio's switch to LLD over either of the Kittens was actually a relatively townie move, because it put him on a lynchwagon that would actually make a difference, as the end of the day was approaching. The sudden jump is a bit derpy, yes, as he had said almost nothing about his new target beforehand, but I don't find it immediately scummy seeing as LLD only became a wagon near the very end of the day. That said, the complete lack of content on D2 is pretty terrible. Null tell, leaning very slightly town because his actions on Day 1 actually feel to me like he's trying to think things through instead of just jumping on easy wagons. I want people on his wagon to explain to me why his actions here are scummy instead of standard Dormio incrediderp. It sure would be nice if Dormio posted too!

Instead, I want to focus on something that's been bugging me all game. Sorry for kicking K4U in the face. :<
##Vote Shadoweh

I realize that the fake vig shot probably took some sort of emotional toll, but I feel like Shadoweh has just been coasting since the early game. Shadoweh, you constantly ask other people for their reads and ask clarifying questions from other people on their actions, but I never see you make any sort of conclusion from them. The only scumspicion I see is the D2 vote on Bard, and that's a vote that seems to be based on a flip that neither Bard nor anyone on that wagon could have known.
Some questions for you then. What do you think of Dormio? You apparently liked his case enough by the end of D1 to have a vote on him over the LLD wagon you would have "loved to join" otherwise, so I want an update of your opinions on him. Also, could you give some of your current scum reads?

More to come while I read other people.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Warning - while you were typing 31 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
I started writing this around 10 hours ago.
What the hell happened?
Ugh, rewriting the entire post is annoying.

First of all, end of day, it was obvious I was not going to be able to get anything happening against either kitten in that window.
I mean, people didn't even show up to the deadline anyway.
As for that post about LLD and Huh What, I don't think that Huh What is scum.
I simply made that post to better organize my thoughts about LLD and Huh What.
Whatever.

@Kitten4u (Now Conqueror): Again, the only thing I can say about the not voting for UK in the confirmation stage is that I think differently to you regarding that.
I did not actively push for you on D1 because I wanted to see you say more words.
IE. Your opinion on the relevance of the confirmation phase, and full reasoning for not participating in it.
"This is evidenced by how weak the push was and that he didn't even consider it worth voting for." <- I really despise that. Like, really, really hate it.
And, hey, if you want to apply that logic, does that mean that half the playerlist don't care about the game at all?
You know, since you were all there, but refusing to post?
But I think I'm digressing here.
Basically, I think you're being hypocritical there and only looking at the facts that convenience you, and are scummy for it.
And regarding the fakevote question: At that point? Probably not. Because I thought that Bardiche was also scum at the time. Though I probably would have swapped somewhere during the argument with UK if it had been during the day.

As for the other kitten,