NoTV 2 Mafia (Game Over, Scum and 3rd Party Win)

[Mitsuki]

I should probably mention that the reason why I'm saying that Raikaria is probably the recruit is because he's been scummy D3, not because of recruitspec. I agree that recruitspec by itself is useless and only going to hurt town.

[Raikaria]

And apparently he hates all lurkers except Shadoweh for some reason

He's not alone in lurking. I'd probobly sting up Shadoweh at this point for it; or PX for a general lack of content outside whacking me over the head with a case that amounts to a wet fish. But ActionDan has been standing out to me as lurking for the majority of the game. I look over the game thinking 'What has ActionDan done of note' and come up with the answer: 'Absolutely nothing'. That's not a good thing to think when you are halfway through Day 3.

He's not the only person I dislike for lack of content, but besides maybe Shadoweh; who's few posts have far more substance, Actiondan is the worst offender in terms of lurking. Not that Dan lurking is much new.

I currently think Shadoweh is the 2nd worst lurker.

[ActionDan]

correct Shadoweh, we had no idea (at least me + Conq) that 3 people would commute. 

reading the game is hard.

For the purposes of voting, I'll

##Vote NNR

because I am not overly fond of his posts.

[Dorian White]

PX: Answer me please. And how does what Raikaria just did make Raikaria scum? ...

Well~ how does what Raikaria did make him town?
He got under fire for his PX vote~ so he had to change it* And why doesn't he went back to his CF7 vote? Because he's afraid of even more criticism* How is that a town reason to let a scum read slid?

@Shadoweh: Be a good girl and talk with me! What do you think about Raikaria and why aren't you voting him?

I currently think Shadoweh is the 2nd worst lurker.

100% go with the flow!
If you have leave your opinions open enough to go for every wagon possible~ then could you give us at least your vote priorities?

Still yay~ for Raikaria being the main wagon! Scum lynch ho! ^.^/

[Raikaria]

Lynch priority right now is something like PX > CF7 > Actiondan > Shadoweh > You. BT is a separate issue which is 'If people want to lynch him due to suspecting he got converted then I'll lynch him'.

My opinion of you is slowly rising; if only through my opinion of other people falling.

The thing is I've failed to get wagons moving on the non-lurkers I want to lynch. Which is depressing.

If you have leave your opinions open enough to go for every wagon possible~ then could you give us at least your vote priorities?

Still yay~ for Raikaria being the main wagon! Scum lynch ho! ^.^/

My opinions are not open. There are several people I wouldn't lynch. Like Conq; SB; Mitsuki; Myself and Sky_Paladin. But hey; go ahead and claim I'll lynch anyone when I've been pretty open about my opinions all game.

[ActionDan]

Omg sky+paladin is in a newbie game.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=59111

point and laugh

[Bardiche]

Please do not use the current thread to link to outside games if it isn't pertinent whatsoever to the game, especially not if used to ridicule other players.

[CF7]

You haven't lynched me yet? A pity.

#Vote NNR for now. This game is demotivating.

[Dorian White]

Are we trying to change the past with charisma?
Do I have to remind you what you said at the beginning of the game? Cause that sounds like being totally open to any lynch! ^^;

...
I mean at this point I'd love to lynch Dan/NNR/PX for lurking and the fact MotK scum does tend to be lurky. Shadoweh; SB and Mitsuki are edgeing towards the point where I'd think of lynching them on activity basis too. One of Conq/BT were probobly converted; so I guess lynching one of them and then the other is an option. Dorian and CF7 I think are scum for reasons other than lurkiness; but I know a Dorian lynch probably isn't gonna happen after D2.
...

So~ you would lynch Dan/NNR/PX for lurking~ you would agree on lynching Shadoweh/SB/Mitsuki for the same reason and you would lynch CF7 or me for being scummy* I leave your attempt to boil up paranoia about BT and Conq aside~ cause I think both are impossible to lynch today anyway* So that's pretty much every one that isn't you, isn't it?^^;;

Now back to the presence* Why did you let yourself pushed out of your PX vote that easy~ when you say that he's the one most likely to flip scum? Why are you voting Dan right now over CF7?
And about the people you don't want lynched* Well~ SB and Sky are most unlikely to get lynched today~ Mitsuki has only Shadoweh on her and Conq is plain impossible to lynch* So you only don't want to lynch the player who aren't get lynched today anyway? That's cool*^^;;

See~ that's how you do it* I tried to push you yesterday but no one was listening~ so it was all in vain but you you hear me crying about it? No sir! This witch will keep her spirit up and try again till the job is done! ^.^/
Even if that means to ?borrow? Shadowehs mind-control-beams~ ze*

[Raikaria]

Are we trying to change the past with charisma?
Do I have to remind you what you said at the beginning of the game? Cause that sounds like being totally open to any lynch!

The beginning of the game is not Late Day 3. Opinions can change drastically from there.

[SB]

NNR, your suspicion of PX was basically dropped after he stopped attacking you until today, and it felt to me like you were just throwing comments in on him now and then to remind us you don't like him rather than actually scumhunting.

BT: I don't think scum getting strung up would just claim vanilla instead of trying to survive or draw out a claim by saying they were the cop or something. I also don't agree with Raikaria's weird cases coming from town, didn't he do the same thing in SCP?

Raikaria, if people keep telling you that your reads are wrong, maybe you should reconsider them instead rather than just complaining about how nobody listens to you? You're not always gonna be right, and if people keep telling you that they're wrong your action should to re-examine them rather than just being bullheaded and ignoring what everyone is telling you like you have been. I seriously think the way you're going about this is scummy because it feels like you're trying to portay yourself as the victim here, especially when you say "oh I will be accused of X if I do Y" and stuff like that.

I think Mitsuki's posting is town so far and I don't really have much of an issue with her? I actually find the way that Shadoweh has basically ignored all of Mitsuki's posts today in order to essentially pursue a rolespec case is pretty bad, especially when I can't see why you're even voting her in the first place beyond just sheeping Conq and easily faked rolespec suspicions?

Conq, why are you waffling on an NNR vote right now? I don't really see any arguments against it in your posts, so the disconnect there is kind of confusing. I'm not fully convinced that Dormio was an ascetic (or couldn't be ascetic <ROLE> for that matter) and even if Dormio had super accurate scumreads somehow wouldn't it be better to have killed someone who wasn't lynchbait instead? Him being checked as a PR (or the kill getting redirected somehow, I suppose) is the only reason I can think of that would get Dormio scumkilled.

[Raikaria]

Yes but I can't always be wrong either SB.

Can I? -_-

And I can't exactly push other people; I don't have cases on them.

I'm gonna sit on my vote overnight and do my usual re-read in the morning. Maybe by then there's more stuff to use, and maybe with a fresh head and I start a new page.

[BT]

A read of NNR's ISO didn't do much. There's no strong scumread there, but I dislike that his conduct has basically been to vote people with awful play. That's why I couldn't remember any of it - there's nothing serious going on. There are some comments on the rest of the players but the only things he really follows up on are the lurker suspicions. The caveat here is that I feel like I've been here before. At the end of the day the main thing I'd lynch NNR for is a lack of townposting when my pool of lynch candidates is small as it is.

I'm beginning to see the Raikaria wagon, chiefly because of this jelly mentality that he started moving around wagons based on popular opinion. It's not very strong though since the opinions themselves still seem genuine. I'm also pretty sure he townslipped by not knowing Conq/Dan/Mitsuki were invincible because it would have come up in a scum QT discussing recruit targets. Mitsuki might be on to something - he wouldn't necessarily be aware of it if he was the one being recruited - but if that's the case I'd rather have a more solid basis than just him being insecure about votes.

Still unsure about CF7! I don't like how he's hot on Mitsuki's trail mostly for that D1 post he disliked? His comments on Zak and Oarfish not being preferred wagons (on D1/D2 respectively) feel hollow if what qualifies as preferred wagons is "Mitsuki" - in the end he just handwaved the main wagons to focus on not much else. When he voted PX late last day I could rationalize it pretty well but now he's basically forgotten about those other reads again and the comments on Raikaria and NNR just come off as sheepish. I'm pretty sure it's either him or NNR as scum at this point, actually, and while NNR reads unimpressive at best, there are still things deterring me from lynching the other guy even though he might be more aggressively bad (see: this paragraph).

##Vote NekoNekoRex

I also have the nagging suspicion that CF7 is a scum wagon. Well, the wagon's basically SB and Mitsuki. It's more of a gut feeling when I get around to reading their opinion posts - the CF7 votes come off as a bit underwhelming in a way I can't really word out.

BT: I don't think scum getting strung up would just claim vanilla instead of trying to survive or draw out a claim by saying they were the cop or something. I also don't agree with Raikaria's weird cases coming from town, didn't he do the same thing in SCP?

That's it? I thought PX having an obvtown-looking D1 entailed more than that. The vanilla thing isn't really a rule, especially if the person playing isn't into the game.

Is SCP the game where you two were scum? I actually don't remember much about Raikaria's earlygame play there so I might want to read that. I'm mostly working off of a strong impression of last game's meta where I felt like Raikaria had to wrestle to get things he can talk about, and I figure that as scum even if he has a better game it would be things that are as relevant as possible, not roletalk with CF7 and then the D2 slapfight with Dorian.

Question: Can't you basically say the same thing about CF7 claiming vanilla? Maybe what's bothering me about your vote is that you're not giving CF7 similar treatment to other slots? I'm kind of surprised I'm the only one who keeps bringing up the other side of the coin.

[BT]

Reading that last sentence before the vote again I might have worded that badly. Basically I feel much more solid on NNR's chances of flipping scum compared to the conflicting reads I keep getting on CF7.

I really want PX to talk about other things because amassing reasons to vote Raikaria probably isn't very hard. As for Shadoweh, Iunno. I still feel fine about her posts. The main problem is that she isn't talking about the game.

[Conqueror]

Conq, why are you waffling on an NNR vote right now? I don't really see any arguments against it in your posts, so the disconnect there is kind of confusing.

I don't have any arguments listed, it's gut. I keep going back and forth on him because I can't find anything solid but I dislike his votes.

Dorian: Burden of proof is on people to show why people are scum, not why people are town.

Anyway, catching up with the rest of the thread.

[SB]

BT: I dunno, if there's only 3 scum (and PX is one of the people who could be the Janitor or Recruiter) then you really don't want to go down to a Day 1 lynch, even if you're not super enthusiastic about the game. Unless you're specifically a Godfather than scans as a VT then I don't see the benefit in claiming that either. I also keep rereading that paragraph and can't really find reasons for him to be town besides "this vote was okay at the time" which is more of a null point than anything else?

Wrt Raikaria: I don't remember the game too well tbh but looking back through the whole making himself look like the victim was pretty prelevant there too, and iirc BBM said to me after I flipped that he was really scummy for his sudden opinion shifts and was confused as to why nobody pointed it out.

##Unvote
##Vote: Shadoweh

I actually meant to do this last post because I agree with pressuring the slot more and my reasons for thinking she was townie aren't as strong after some consideration. Would probably be voting Raikaria after this at this point.

[Conqueror]

I kinda suspect PX of being the recruit, honestly, given he's bringing up all these arguments on Raikaria now when it's been there since D1. But that's still not where I want to go. But PX, seriously, why is Raikaria not just insane and town?

And no, Shadoweh, at least I didn't know I was going to get a QT. Not sure why Mitsuki didn't respond to this actually; proof that people aren't reading the game. But, uh, why are you worrying about finding recruited people when most people are looking for original scum? That's mostly what I want to hear from you.

SB: Scum wouldn't claim vanilla on D1 normally, but if they were say mafia recruiter or mafia janitor vig I think they might claim VT because claiming a pr could draw a counterclaim and get you lynched, meaning you can't use your role.

Considering i was sorta flash-wagonned both times while i was asleep, me not claiming is understandable. If you want me to claim, let me consult my role PM, because it is so complex, i completely forgot what it says exactly. Oh, wait. I remeber.
I am Hieda no Akyu and i am VT.

Tbh this made me think CF7 is town more than any of his other posts.

Secondary vote would be NNR for being pretty confident in his current reads even though we've had 0 scum lynches so far. :V No, seriously.

Still don't like CF7, I feel like he hasn't really done anything all game, it bothers me. No strong scumreads, no solid votes. He dropped Oarfish for what looked like a few twitterposts, I dunno how he managed to feel decent enough about that to unvote.

What has CF7 not done and how is it more or less than what you've done?
I think the main thing I find off about NNR is flexibility of reads? Doesn't seem like he's taken any effort in re-analyzing the situation, instead just picking up the same banners and running with them.

[BT]

I also keep rereading that paragraph and can't really find reasons for him to be town besides "this vote was okay at the time" which is more of a null point than anything else?

Oh no when I said "see this paragraph" I was referring to "CF7 is aggressively bad". Stuff that makes me flinch about CF7 is the idea that he'd townread the main wagons in the first place instead of jumping onto any of them, the thing about power levels I pointed out yesterday, the fact that his play reminds me of last game and when he's forced to comment on events it doesn't sound totally fake like in Medaka, and maybe other things I've forgotten about. I can generally see the option that CF7 is town (not the same as "I think CF7 is town", more like there's enough doubt there that he's scum that makes me want to shy away from the wagon).

[Bardiche]

I Kind Of Expected Affinity, But The Votecount Refused To Change...      
         
Raikaria:    Dorian, PX, Sky_Paladin (3)            
Mitsuki:    Shadoweh (1)               
PX:    NNR (1)      
CF7:   Mitsuki (1)   
InactionDan:   Raikaria (1)
NNR:   ActionDan, CF7, BT (3)
Shadoweh:   SB (1)

Democracy-hating Communists: No one!

Why the fuck was he on the "not voting list" Affinity: Zakeri (dead)

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch
1 day, 6 hours-ish remain.


In addition, ActionDan has not posted sizeable content nor voted within the first 24 hours of the Day starting. Affinity has been notified.

[Conqueror]

Re: Raikaria playing the victim. Iirc that was a big thing in his most recent scum game, but I also seem to remember him doing it in his town games whenever he comes under a lot of pressure.

And I can't exactly push other people; I don't have cases on them.

I'll say I dislike this because I don't think not having cases on people has ever stopped Raikaria from pushing them. But seriously, Raikaria, get a backbone.

The thing is I've failed to get wagons moving on the non-lurkers I want to lynch. Which is depressing.

Uh, which nonlurkers would that be?

[Conqueror]

Stuff that makes me flinch about CF7 is the idea that he'd townread the main wagons in the first place instead of jumping onto any of them

I'll note that this is what Shadoweh did D1. I don't find it damning personally because there are times when you can hate all the wagons and want to push your vanity wagon, but if you found that questionable from CF7 maybe look into Shadoweh as well?

[Conqueror]

*although Shadoweh didn't townread Zak, more like she dismissed him because she wouldnt be back for when Zak started posting

[BT]

It's mostly a big deal because CF7 himself was a competing wagon most of the time.

[ActionDan]

Oh  excuse me. 

I suppose you want content.

Alright:

*cough* ahem

Conqueror is town: self explanatory
Mitsuki is either some scum forced to commute N2 or town.  Since there was a scum JOAT that was a practical info role last game, I'd think to limit them by having them commute this game would be too punitive.  Therefore town.
PX was probably town yesterday.  Recruitment is possible but it is better to hunt original scum so there is no point pursuing him.
ditto BT
SB I can't easily read but let's call him town.
Shadoweh I do not have a townread on.  possible lynchee
Raikaria could be scum since above anything else the pursuit of moi is non-sensical
Dorian was town yesterday. not pursuable
NNR's posts make me want to vote him.  And so I have
CF7 I do not have a townread on but w/e he can live
Sky_Paladin I do not have a townread on.  possible lynchee

[Mitsuki]

Not sure why Mitsuki didn't respond to this actually; proof that people aren't reading the game.

I'm reading, but I already implied I had no idea of the QT's existance before... I didn't even know that more people would commute.

[Mitsuki]

@CF7: You said that you didn't suspect me based on my voteswitch, and then I pointed out where you said I was sucmmy for it. What do you think about that? What do you have to say about the rest of my case?

I kind of want to feel annoyed but I can't

[Sky_Paladin]

@Conqueror
On day 1 -

Px saying "Not interested in Raikaria while NNR is here."
felt like posturing and ignoring game state in favor of policy.
which is pretty scummy

How do you feel about this with the current situation? 

On second thought, I have info that implies that Dormio can't have been the Remilia, who I'm assuming is the recruiter. Which means he was janitor vigged. Meh.

I seem to recall BT also 'getting info' about an item, and getting info with an item.  Discuss. 

@Dorian

not to forget dormio~ I targeted him last night but it failed~ don't know if I got role blocked or if my  mushrooms just doesn't worked on him~ however he has no idea how much fun he's missing~ nor do I* cause I have no idea what my mushrooms actually do*^^;;

I have reason to believe you are faking your post restriction.  Can you please explain your restriction so that I can check it?

It seems you can give mushrooms to player but "Dont know what they do".  I don't think so.  This isn't a bastard game.  It seems like BT got given an item in twilight.  Was it your doing? 

@Shadoweh

Conq, how confident at this point are you about Dan's alignment?

Why did you only ask about Dan's alignment?  Mitsuki went, too. 

Conq, ActionDan, and Mitsuki have mysteriously disappeared for the night!  Hence, they cannot undertake or be targeted by any night actions, including the conversion.

I figure that the commuter is town aligned, and probably commuted themselves.  We also know that they didn't take the recruiter or the janitor, because there was a recruitment and a janitor kill. 
We can therefore assume there were zero vampires in the commuted group, although it's possible there may be a non-vampire scum amongst them. 

The alternative is to consider there must be at least three scums and possibly four in the remaining group - all the players except the commuted ones - which leaves CF7, Dorian, Raikaria, SB, Shadoweh, NNR, PX, BT and myself.  For now, that list is very long, but it will shorten considerably.  If we ever catch a mafia goon with a flip that reveals they aren't the recruited player (or we flip two goons in that list, period) then the commuted players are all confirmed town. 

Basically I'm going to treat the commuters as confirmed town until we get to the point where there's not enough slots to fill without one of them being scum. 

***

I'm concerned by NNR voting CF7, then switching to PX after very little notice, and Raikaria going along with it very soon after. 

[Affinity]

NNR has asked to replace out.  Will be seeking out a replacement.

[Dr Rawr]

hit me up with a role pm dawg

[Raikaria]

@ SB: I do not intend to make myself look like a victim. I am just frustrated and venting. I'm frustrated because my cases are not being accepted. I'm frustrated because I'm being wagoned for silly reasons; and I'm frustrated because due to a lack of content right now from the players who I think are scummy, I can't make any NEW cases on them.

I'm not a victim. I'm just angry at this game. I'm just annoyed at lurkers. I'm annoyed at my inability to make new cases.

Honestly I feel incapable of making any new; strong cases right now. Which is the primary way I can convince people I am town. I'm sorry but I haven't seen anything that strikes me as scummy recently [That I've not already pointed out] and exhausted all my cases earlier. So I feel like I only have one road open to me and that's Not Me Over Me.

I mean NNR is like the only slot I don't have a great town or scum read on at this point but whatever.

I'll claim what my 'V' starting role is if I must. The convert has happened I feel less pressed to keep information out of scum's hands.

#Unvote
#Vote: NNR/Dr.Rawr