Night of the Vampire Mafia: Happily Ever After

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Stupid "Preview" button is stupid.
Writing up the another post now.

[Shadoweh]

oh hai Conqy welcome to the game what do you think of.. oh. :<

70% of my considerations of people right now depend on what I think of Dormio. I would really like it if DORMIO COULD POST SOON AND ANSWER MY QUESTIONS so I can evaluate if I still think he's as bad as I did on Day 1. You're right, I do feel like I'm coasting, probably because I feel like I can~ Also because it's a waste of time to establish myself as ultra town now when I'll have to establish myself again tomorrow. I am having serious issues getting scum reads. Right now I'm suspicious of Chaore for no discernable reason (I think it's literally because everyone seems to be ignoring him), Dormio because his holding onto an early point and never letting go is suspiciously like my little buddy, UncertainKitten for the same kind of coasting you're accusing me of combined with how I think her content is suspiciously related to how much the person she's talking to wants to vote for her, and you.

Yes, that's right, your slot is suspicious to me because I'm not sure why K4U went out of her way so much to tell me how towny I am. Conqy, what do you think of my reaction to being made dead? Do you not think a member of town expressing no sense of loss at a powerful town role is awkward considering how badly it set us, that is town, back this game? It's true I contemplated LLD, but I stayed where I was because I tried to follow the argument and literally had no idea what was going on with it.

PX: I'll let you know when Durrmio posts.

[Conqueror]

Alright, PX.
Frankly, PX looks pretty terrible. The most recent post not only doesn't contain a vote, but actively waffles between huh what and Dormio, even though PX himself says that he doesn't think Dormio is scum. Then he says huh what looks better than Dormio...leaving him without a scumread. :wat: The case on huh what is pretty minimal, too. Pretty willing to lynch PX, but I want to discuss with Kitten first. I also have to trudge through this LLD vote reasoning a few times more, because I'm not completely getting it right now. Probably the time.

Well, Shadoweh, I suppose you wouldn't believe me if I said that I thought the dynamic you had with Bardiche in the confirmation phrase was suspicious. For someone who supposedly believed she had just been vigged, you had surprisingly little to say about Bard's alignment. In your position, if I had just been vigged right out of confirmation. I would have been calling for Bard's head, but I suppose that's just a playstyle difference. I do think that your anger at being "vigged" was real, but I think it was scum anger. The "loss of power role" point is interesting, but seeing as I never thought about it that way while I was watching events unfold, I wouldn't really expect any townies to think from that perspective, and I think scum would actually be rather miffed at their..."luck".

I'm not exactly happy about UK, especially that little dance with the LLD wagon yesterday, but at the very least she felt somewhat engaged in active questioning, whereas I always get the feeling that you're trying to stand off to the side. I'll have to reread UK later anyways.

...And it looks like you answered my question, but it's all rather barebones. :< I guess I can wait for Dormio...or whatever. But really, can you expand on your suspicions a bit? I want to see something more than one-liner explanations.

@Dormio - I'm dropping the fakevote issue because I think it's silly. But I want to see you make some actual cases on people. Otherwise, you'll keep slipping down my list.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

As for the other kitten, #49, I don't think you ever answered:

You use vigs the same way, but his targetting was awful?
What targetting?

To reiterate, why was the Bardiche's target so awful?
If you did, could you please point out to me where you answered it.
#71: Why did you only single out PX? Why not the other people who weren't posting at all?
Also, insult people -> dissuade them from making cases on you -> -> profit.
Regarding #49, apparently it was answered in #145.
And I find it really weird how you answered it. You said you'd already explained, and the general vibe the post gives me goes with the whole "try to dissuade them from making further cases on me through how I talk" thing.
If you really did explain this earlier, could you please link it?
Also, "I wasn't actually 100% convinced of Bard scum at any point." (#164) is really interesting to me.
You admit yourself in that post that you're backtracking. :/
Also, I'd consider it a pretty terrible thing and I really don't like how much flak you give PX for restating it.
I mean, just because you say it first doesn't make it any better.
Also goes with the "try to dissuade them from making further cases on me through how I talk" thing.
Also, I believe I've said this before but I'll say it again. To explain the "playing it safe" thing, it looked to me like you were setting up your cases so that you could get either Bardiche or Shadoweh regardless of the outcome.
#181. Whee let's say nothing about Dorian.
Also, you accuse me of not expanding my case on you Day One, yet your view of LLD went from "I see LLD's actions as weird and not well thought out, but I don't find them scummy." to "obvscum, lynch" based pretty much entirely on the single tell of "why not X".
You say as much at the beginning of D2 (#303) where your explanation of why you were on the LLD wagon is "avoiding questions" (which is done through said tell) and "oops I misread".
#308. Whee I'll only answer questions that I feel like answering.
Ugh.
inb4IgetinsultedheavilybyUKforthispost

@Shadoweh: Can you please restate the questions or link where they are?

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Gddmt.

[Conqueror]

Dormio, it's a little hard to pick out what you think from that. >_>

Can you summarize in a paragraph that make a concrete point? Also, who are you voting?

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

UK is scum.
Um, to sum, basically.

• Really weird in D1.
• Disliked me for not expanding on my case on UK, or something, when the only thing UK had on LLD to lynch was basically "LLD is using this tell", only to later say "Oops, LLD wasn't using the tell, I misread."
• And "Whee I'll only answer questions I feel like answering." (#308)

IIRC I'm voting UK.
I swear I was.
##Vote Uncertain Kitten

[Shadoweh]

Well, Shadoweh, I suppose you wouldn't believe me if I said that I thought the dynamic you had with Bardiche in the confirmation phrase was suspicious. For someone who supposedly believed she had just been vigged, you had surprisingly little to say about Bard's alignment. In your position, if I had just been vigged right out of confirmation. I would have been calling for Bard's head, but I suppose that's just a playstyle difference. I do think that your anger at being "vigged" was real, but I think it was scum anger. The "loss of power role" point is interesting, but seeing as I never thought about it that way while I was watching events unfold, I wouldn't really expect any townies to think from that perspective, and I think scum would actually be rather miffed at their..."luck".

So you're basically picking up Lambda's case where it left off when she died? Okay, let's clear this up then. After I realized he was seriously considering me dead, what did I call for exactly?

Shadoweh isn't going to flip scum so don't get your hopes up. I like to think it doesn't take long for me to establish myself since when I was scum five people tried to lynch me immediately. I kind of thought you were kidding when you said that because it would be a dick move to do to someone. If you really did kill me I'd say you're way more likely to be Not Town then a Dayvig.

Oh look I wanted Bard's head. OBVSCUM AMIRITE. Then later I cooled down a bit and realized this was just my anger at being taken out speaking and I retracted that. Why would calling for Bard to die be a town tell anyways? I got the impression early that he's town and he's driving the game forward. After Lambda flipped I started to worry it was an EVIL PLOT but his answers were as townie as I can ask for. Maybe normal people don't look at it that way but to me, we just shot town in the foot and we seriously need to get our act together instead of this torrent of rage we've been filled with.

For Dormio: Here's my questions for you, I -think- you did what I asked.

Dormio, who do you currently think is scum? If it's still the kittens, can you try to find something you haven't already stated about them as reasoning? I get that you didn't like UK's #46, and I get you don't like the point Kitten4u was pushing on you about voting in the confirmation stage. If they're scum you'll be able to find more motive in the rest of their posts (or post in K4u's case, but I already asked you to look at what she said about other people.)

For PX: You can have a prize!

##Vote: PX

You have no scum reads in a post that wants so badly to be you making a case on someone. I don't see how you can say you think Dormio is town then say you're going to vote for him, and you really look like you forgot there were other people playing this game. It's weird that you ask me about huh what and seem to want to vote him then don't want him lynched yourself. Huh what.. I'm not sure what I think of huh what. I don't think I support the case on Dormio anymore. I actually agree with alot of what Dormio's saying right now. This leaves me looking negatively again at huh what's posts, but I'll sleep on it before a reread.

Dormio: ""This is evidenced by how weak the push was and that he didn't even consider it worth voting for." <- I really despise that. Like, really, really hate it." What do you hate about it?
"Also, I believe I've said this before but I'll say it again. To explain the "playing it safe" thing, it looked to me like you were setting up your cases so that you could get either Bardiche or Shadoweh regardless of the outcome." Can you provide an example of each of these happening?
Can you provide a summation of opinions on the rest of the players in the game? Is no one else suspicious to you right now?

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Dormio: ""This is evidenced by how weak the push was and that he didn't even consider it worth voting for." <- I really despise that. Like, really, really hate it." What do you hate about it?

Basically, I think you're being hypocritical there and only looking at the facts that convenience you, and are scummy for it.

Because, you know, with that kind of logic everybody that didn't post during the confirmation phase should also be under scrutiny for refusal to participate in the game when there was "ALWAYS RELEVANT" (#351) stuff going on.

"Also, I believe I've said this before but I'll say it again. To explain the "playing it safe" thing, it looked to me like you were setting up your cases so that you could get either Bardiche or Shadoweh regardless of the outcome." Can you provide an example of each of these happening?

My beloved #46, where Bardiche should die if Shadoweh flips town and Bardiche should be under scrutiny if Shadoweh flips scum.
Uh, strike the Shadoweh part. That was a mistake. I'm tired.

Making another post for the 3rd question.

[Conqueror]

So you're basically picking up Lambda's case where it left off when she died?

Not really. I don't recall much of her case right now anyway.

Why would calling for Bard to die be a town tell anyways?

It's not that I think calling for Bard's head is a town tell so much as it seemed to me at the time that your actions didn't really match up with your supposed belief that the vig was bonafide (when I thought it was a pretty clear fake). Anyway, this is getting kinda nitpicky, and I'm satisfied enough with what you've put out since my last post.

##Unvote
##Vote PX
Sleep time for now, more tomorrow. Suffice to say I'm not satisfied with his explanation for his jump on LLD and his lack of content since then.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

To clarify on the mistake, I somehow mixed up one of LLD's posts with UK's. :fail:

Can you provide a summation of opinions on the rest of the players in the game? Is no one else suspicious to you right now?

Oh, hey, an opinion post.

Bardiche: I believe he is town, and ergo, I'm not interested.

Dormio: This is me.

Schezo: Lynch, obviously rolled scum again. Dunno, think he's town for now.

Shadoweh: Probably town, ergo, you're boring to me.

Hanged Hourai: I forgot he was playing. Just like in every other game. orz

PX: ##55 -> #119. That always struck me as odd. Backtracking, or something?
D2 Vote whar?
Jump from UK to LLD in D1 was kind of awkward.
"If you are reaction fishing and your 100% Bard!scum feeling is fake, then my entire case is invalidated." (#176)
Also in that post, the reason for voting LLD: "You're looking for scumpairs, not individual scum."
Latest post is all kinds of "lolwut?" that's been called out by everyone else already.
Slightly lighter shade of red than the kittens.

UncertainKitten: Probably scum, go die.

Kiro: Leaning towards town.

Zakeri: Leaning towards town.

Chaore: CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN. Er, I mean stop posting in CDO so I can read you in ISO. :V
Leaning towards town.

Dorian/CaptH: Dorian G. saying that he couldn't see the confirmation phase, bar the supposed vig shot if Shadoweh actually flipped, as relevant (#120) was all kinds of weird to me. Unless I'm misunderstanding what that meant.
On capt. h, ROLE SHENANIGANS that last online stuff isn't cool. :/
Also of note, his cases seem rather fluffy.
Lighter shade of red than PX.

huh what: He's done a couple of weird things, but I'm inclined to lean towards town.

K4U/Conqueror: Probably scum, go die.

[Edible]

Counting Votes Instead Of Going To Work

PX (4) - Bardiche, Kiro, Shadoweh, Conqueror
UncertainKitten (2) - Zakeri, Dormio
Dormio (3) - UncertainKitten, huh what, capt. h
huh what (1) - Schezo

Not voting: Chaore, Hourai, PX

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

[Pesco]

Hourai gets a prod.

[Hanged Hourai]

 :]
Hi I'm not dead. Expect a post shortly. I'll try to aim for less than 4 hours this time.

[UncertainJakutten]

@Dormio: I'm not going to try to pull anything out of that bloody mess you made. It's absolutely unreadable and I still have the game to reread. If there's anything you want to ask, post it in bullet point format, with spaces, and clear formatting.

The concise version of your case seems to be, once again, someone using that word "weird" rather than telling me why I'm acting with scum intent. Then misrepping me on LLD, because while I initially PRESSED LLD for the "tell", I actually VOTED her for being manifestly unhelpful and obstinate in the face of reasonable questioning, which felt like it had scum intent, and finally, something that I always do because most of the questions I get are dumb as fuck and huge noise generators?

A+ CASE THERE DURRMIO!

I'm...just not even going to bother. Go play with your blocks Dormio, the adults are talking.

@Shadoweh: To be clear you support Dormio's case on me? Despite how, once again, the reasoning is vague rhetoric with no actual support?

Anyway, I see nothing else to respond to, so I should probably do my reread now. I am honestly getting incredibly frustrated with how awful Dormio is being, despite several times being called out for this same exact shit. I don't know about you, but I'd like to think when I'm told that my reasons for voting someone are vague, involve a lot of rhetoric and very little actual explanation, and also have no basis in reality, I'd try to re examine my points and MAYBE make myself clearer. But you just continue to choo choo with the same awful case. When pressed for opinions on other players, you post a fucking amazing IIoA list. To be honest, I don't see my vote going off you during this reread. But I'll try to give you a chance.

[WHMZakeri]

I don't have anything entirely new to add just yet, but I still feel the need to respond to Bardiche.

I already said in one of my last posts that I shouldn't have taken your joke thing seriously and argue about whether you believe someone or other on Dormio is the truth or not. I don't want to lynch you, and if I did, it would be for your case on LLD, not because other people are trying to borrow each other's cases on the easy targets (which is what I think is happening with regards to Dormio's case.) I was confused when I was assuming you were targeting Dormio, because your joke post came right after his post, used that annoying phrase, and did not original make direct references to who you thought was scum (I notice you late claimed you were joking about it being Me and Schezo due to meta, which was not anything close to something I would assume from skimming over those posts).

Basically, calling people out for attacking people for not being Typographically elegant means that I feel they are attacking a person based on their inability to defend themselves, while using their inability to get across who they think is scum against them. That's largely how I feel the case against LLD went down - people raged so hard that it became impossible for the two sides to even read each other, and the side that was bigger won out due to majority rule.

That said, Bardiche, you should really stop raging over the fact that no one is willing to listen to you. This is a game where you're encouraged to read through and give your own opinion. This is a game where you're suppose to play devil's advocate in a group effort for everyone to drop what's false, and leave behind only the truth. That, and the fact that you're voting somebody because he was the only person willing to listen to you on day one. That's certainly not a nice reward for taking your words at face value, which you seem to be encouraging.

Cut:  UK, please don't be angry.

[Bardiche]

I was raging because my method of scumhunting is to ask people for justifications about their actions and explanations of their thoughts, and if suspicious people go "Well I'm not going to respond lalalala bard doesn't exist lalalala" and everyone else goes "there is absolutely nothing wrong with this", it means I am forced to abandon who I think is scummy because A) he doesn't want to respond and B) no one cares. This probably means that my target isn't considered scum by a majority, and while I'd love jumping on the popular trains and putting in no effort, that's not how I like to roll.

I don't care if people disagree whether or not the people I look at are scum, but at the very least I'd expect people to respond. :\ You know if everyone just ignored any question I'd ask them I'd be pretty much forced to just jump on a popular bandwagon. And when it takes raging for people to respond I'm sort of :toot:.

I pushed a case on LLD initially to follow my manifesto and get explanations from her so she became readable. You know how that turned out. When I ask questions and people refuse to respond, I assume they cannot give an answer, and if you act thoughtlessly then you're derp, but if you act anti-town and cannot give an explanation for it I assume you're scum. Since LLD proclaimed herself a good Mafia player I assumed she was not derp and hence manifested my prodvote into a serious vote. And until the very end I was given no reason to ever let up on her because she never satisfied the reason I voted her despite being online quite a lot. It didn't need to devolve into what it became, but she could've replied in the first post, rather than go "who is scum bard?? omg you only call me scum when pres'd k, already answered question learn2read" (paraphrased heavily).

I'll respond to other things later as I have stuff to do urgently. I'll be back in an hour and then I'll examine PX's response (he responded right) to people's votes on him and decide from there.

[Hanged Hourai]

First, to answer questions about my thoughts on the LLD wagon, it was hard to follow due to a lot of frustration and meta stuff, but in the midst of it, I saw a shining gem in the clutter. T'was a crumb. A crumb crumbing her role, which I then believed would be a townie power role. So yes, I did not like the wagon. The difference in playstyles between the players and how it wasn't based entirely off of horrible logic make it understandable how it happened. Out of the people on it, Bard seems the least scum-motivated and logical. Some of the plain wagoning is suspicious and will be addressed.

Chaore-
I really dislike how he opens up Day 2 and he only still has the same 2 people on his scum list and then doesn't vote either of them. He isn't actively pushing either of his picks and I find him pretty scummy. I can't even see any voice of suspicion outside of those two for the entire game. This is something I really don't like. Why did you not vote either in your D2 post if you still found them both even scummier than the day before?

Schezo-
His pushing for his scumpick is very unimpressive as it doesn't even take anything new to update his case. It is literally borrowed from D1 and does not really bother to add anything new And now his scum opinion on Dormio is very unimpressive as it originally was unoriginal due to everything being said already, and now, he still is not pushing it, but leaving himself open to get on the wagon if a need arises. He is not actively pushing his lynches and seems to be coasting along without much scrutiny.

I feel fine placing my vote here once again.
##Vote: Schezo
Update your opinions and cases.

I'll get around to other people and questions later, as I feel I ... need to get this post out there. :dragonforce:

[Hanged Hourai]

EBWOS
hurr

"seems logical and the least scum motivated"

[Chaore]

@Dormio: Let me get that straight, that post was just for your benefit? Not a case at all? So you basically voted for a townie to get lynched, and didn't even leave a case or reasoning why. The only thing you've done is actually post a case after a full game day and a half, and that's really not making me look favorably on you right now. This is 'target player, make case later' at a ridiculous -full game day- length. I'm pretty sure I still want you dead. ##Vote: Dormio

@PX: Are you and Dormio competing for who can look the scummiest or something. It is -really- hard to tell. Okay so you atleast bothered to try and say why you thought LLD was scum, I am glad you at least bothered to answer. This is however, not exactly what Bard said. This is also not an excuse to have not posted it earlier, PX why did you never give this reasoning at all? You had plenty of time. At this, you never said you wanted a better post from her and NEVER ASKED. Why are you revealing what would have been a logical reasoning, IF YOU HAD POSTED IT A FULL GAME DAY EARLIER? Also, No. You don't get a free outsie from being on a town wagon because it deadline lynched. Also no you spent a full game day, Get the fuck back here, don't put it off longer. You're not even asking more than just asking Shadoweh to make your fucking wagon for you. God the fuck damnit, can I vote two players?

@Hourai: Oh hey. You still exist. I love the town logic in 'they didn't vote immediately they MUST BE SCUM'. Lift that from Kiro? I held off voting because I wanted the two to post and explain what the fuck they were thinking so I could decide which I liked least. As it turns out they decided to wait a FULL DAY to get those posts out. PX atleast explained a logical reason, even if it came FAR too late and is suspicious for thus, though Dormio basically says 'no reason lol, just made that post to organize my thoughts'. I like Dormio least for that.

[WHMZakeri]

@Shadoweh: To be clear you support Dormio's case on me? Despite how, once again, the reasoning is vague rhetoric with no actual support?

Okay, I've seen you throw this word around a lot lately, and I get the feeling that I'm missing something about your arguments, so I looked up the definition.

Rhetoric is the art of persuading people by speaking and (later) by writing.[1] People can be trained in this skill. It is the art or the technique of persuasion, used by orators (public speakers).

So the reason why Dormio's case is bad is because he's ... trying to persuade? What? That's not right. I know I'm missing something. Regardless, now that I know this definition, I'm going to change the words "Typographical Elegance" to "Rhetoric" and "Easy case" to "using bad rhetoric"

Again, UK is using the case that just because someone is using the word "Weird" to describe actions that "Are clearly not town, but might not also mean completely scum". This shows that Dormio actually has a bad rhetoric. I've already discussed what this means.

Armed with my new knowledge of the word, I decided to reread the huge Day one Argument yet again. It's amazing just how much of a spiraling black void of logic it is. It gets stupider and stupider every time I read it. So the excuse UK has now is that by the time she actually voted LLD, it was because she wouldn't answer Bardiche's questions.

Bardiche Grills LLD, then LLD Responds by saying that Bardiche's case largely involves Ad hominid, and Attacking her Rhetoric. UncertainKitten then Votes and, one post later, denies the fact that LLD's response to Bardiche's case was valid. After Being forced to repeat herself saying that Bardiche is attacking "Her Rhetoric" Uk then responds by Calling LLD Hypocritical scum because LLD is admitting to attacking Bardiche's Rhetoric. At this point, I'm discounting "But she was being Obstinate towards Bardiche, and I thought that was scummy!" as a valid point. UK was misrepresenting LLD's responses, and attacked her for somebody else having a case on her. I don't honestly see how UK could possibly believe She was voting for scum when she couldn't even be arsed to read her posts.

She's asked to justify why Bardiche's case on her was bad, and asked to answer Bardiche's questions. The thing is, She already answered that he was attacking her for not being able to make sense, not because she showed any scum intent.

*What changed between the first line and the last line of your opening post that you wanted to vote, i.e. what convinced you my vigshot was scummy?
This question is confusing, because it points out the discrepancy between the lines "I'm not voting until Affinity gets here" and "Vote: X" The "What convinced you about my vigshot was scummy" part is a valid question, but the original question as it was stated just tries to discredit her ability to remember what she wrote half an hour ago when she started making the post and after talking herself in circles around whether she thought the shot was scummy or not.


* How does Shadoweh scum correlate to Bardiche scum, given the "distancing" would be an act of Shadoweh's to implicate me? I.E. what reasoning do you employ to support that someone vigging randomly would be scum if his target would flip scum?
This and the next question are asking her to justify saying something that was made in a post that the above point establishes that she wasn't all there. Bardiche's remaining questions largely involved picking apart her weakest post, and forcing her to give answers that would either result in "I'm totally braindead, never listen to me for the rest of the game" or "I'm totally braindead, and I'm going to keep being braindead." They were loaded questions.

* This is a vote for her to get on her suspicions post-haste and update it with a reasonable thread of logic so we can deduce how she arrived at her conclusion. Or: Who do you think are scum, and why do you think they are scum? I'm still lost on how Huh What is scum. Citing a post and bolding one line doesn't make it nearly as obvious as you think it is.
This question, and the following two are just simple asking her to clearify her cases. These are the best questions Bard had against her, but the fact that these points are last means that they were retroactively added onto his questions, and still demonstrates that the biggest part of his case on her was because she made one derp post.

Bardiche was attacking LLD because she was an easy case to make for, was also a case on someone that was unpopular at the time (I remember, Bardiche said he loved starting cases like that.), And the lynch pulled through because LLD, instead of doing something scummy like suddenly withdrawing and answering these stupid questions politely, decided that since Bardiche was attacking her for her Rhetoric that he was scum making and pushing a bad case because she was a townie. UK leaped onto the case with the use of meta, and stayed on by ignoring her responses to herself and Bardiche.

Given what I've uncovered about UK's meta recently, I'm almost certain the real reason UK was so focused on LLD at the end wasn't because Bardiche's argument had any sort of merit to it, but because LLD was trying to argue against UK, and she just latched on to anything to make LLD look bad.

Cut by Bard: So you admit that you wanted her lynched because instead of huddling up like a good scum and apologizing for earning slight ire from a single townie, that she instead thought you were scum for pushing a bad case on a townie.   :justasplanned: I think you need to work on the "when people don't answer questions, I assume they're either bad at mafia or scum." Because a lot of good scum will know better than to not be completely cooperative when a townie is grilling them.

[WHMZakeri]

In the interest of appealing to the Crowd at large:
UK is Scum because she:

• Used a poor excuse to shift her perspective to LLD
• Voted solely to support a case she did not make, and gave no evidence that she even read.
• Misread her posts, and used these misreadings to attempt to make her look more scum.
• Her only defense against these claims is "I was wrong."

These are all things that betray scum intent.
I'm not holding her lack of readings against her, because she's managed to find a new excuse for each and every one of her posts.

[Bardiche]

PX, as was said before, I am equally unhappy with the request to look at people not on LLD, because that seems a request to stop voting you. :U I can understand why you would want that but I am as yet unhappy with your response.

Alright! Take two on this post! That's what I get for deleting it. Count this as rage.

I was skimming with limited time and saw LLD's post as strange. She cleared UK by calling the wagon "laughable", copying only Dormio's reasons for voting UK, when he wasn't even voting for her, and using an objective read to clear her. And then she uses another objective read to call Shadoweh scum if she doesn't die to a fake vig. And then proceeds to vote Bardiche. I wanted her to do a better post.

The reason I take issue with this part is that you say you were skimming, had limited time, saw her post as strange. There is nothing wrong with this turn of events, except you posted inbetween your LLD vote and LLD's post. At first you made no mention of it, but switched after I voted her. I asked for the correlation between these two events, if there is one - why did you not raise the issue before, given you must already have seen it in the previous post?

As for why I continued voting her at the end, do you want me to rehash what everybody said that I agree with? Otherwise, her scum hunting really seems like a tactic that would aid scum a lot more than town, since it consists of "Look at this. Something is wrong. Do you see anything?", then waiting for someone to post an actual case. This would allow her to jump on with that reason easily.

This is acceptable reasoning, and I understand when everything's been said already... but can you rehash what everybody said that you agree with in specific? There are reasons for jumping on LLD that are weaker than other reasons, and I'd like you to lay bare exactly what reasons others gave compelled you to stay on her case.


UK, can you elucidate for me what your case on LLD was? I looked at you favourably for long now but I admit it is still lost to me.


Dormio, I am unsufficiently impressed with your response. In this post you weigh both of them, stating LLD is the least scummy, and noting a particular oddity about Huh What you reportedly dislike. Your account of LLD is that her opener was terrible, but no other opinions. Please restate what principle point made LLD scummy to you.


Zakeri I really want to respond seriously to you, but all I get out of your post are attempts to rile me up. Are you trying to provoke me by acting like a dick or is that just imagination on my behalf?

[UncertainJakutten]

Zak has shown me I used a word wrong, and spent a wall of text beating this point to death. I'm amazed at how you can use so many words to be so utterly useless. What I meant by "rhetoric" was Dormio was repeating things that sound good on the surface without actually explaining why. What I meant, I think, was the use of buzz words. He uses buzz words and has no substance. Does that help clarify things for you, Zak of many useless words? Anyway, when LLD was saying Bard attacked her rhetoric, my reason for saying that was bad was because she was using that "rhetoric" I was talking about to do it, and I figured that's what she meant. She was using buzz words to attack Bard who she for some reason was saying was attacking her buzz words. This kind of gels with the fact I ask her SEVERAL TIMES to explain how Bard is attacking her rhetoric.

Give it the fuck up Zak, you have nothing on me and you're wasting fucktons of effort not telling us ANYTHING about your intent besides really wanting me lynched. I tire of it.

@Bard Cut: ...huuuuuuuuuuuuh. You know, I have to wonder the same thing regarding Zak and me. Because it's WORKING if that was his intent.

As for my case on LLD. Started at "Why are you being hypocritical with your tell? You asked Bard why you were scum, and now you use that "tell" on huh what. Erroneously." (Turns out I was half wrong here). Then as she became obstinate, I noticed you had questions for her. She refused to answer them. So, when I voted her, it was for the above, and "Why do you refuse to answer our reasonable questions? All I'm asking is you explain why Bard is wrong and answer his questions." In addition to this, I had read your case and saw your point of view, though I probably wouldn't have voted if she had just answered the damn questions. From there it just become a vortex of stubbornness and awful.

Also, I'll be posting my reread now, just needed to explain why Zak has his head so far up his ass he's got hairballs.

Oh, lovely, a concise case

1. OK? Yes, I was mistaken.
2. Lol no. You should learn that whole reading thing, given how great you are at writing. My vote on LLD, ONCE A FUCKING GAIN, was that she was refusing to answer reasonable questions. Your apparent density is irritating me and I had to clear out about three different very mean things I wanted to say.
3. OK? Yes, I was mistaken.
4. OK? Yes, I was mistaken.

Look, you've said things, and done a lot of IIoA and misrep, but you've failed to actually show why I'm scum. So let's try this. Who's scum with me, Zak?

[UncertainJakutten]

And the worst part is that's not even my reread wall. This is:

Once more unto the breach, except this time with a flip. I'm mostly going to try to keep to new observations since last time I did this I already went through how awful Dormio was.

...did I ever point how how awful PX is by continuing RVS and then deciding not to take things seriously? Also, I think Dormio questioned me about why PX over everyone not posting. Mostly because PX WAS posting and being useless. There were any number of reasons for people not to post. PX's sucked.

Huh, I just noticed HW 42 implies the gambit thing out of the gate. That makes me feel slightly worse about him. Not sure how I feel about his Dormio case at this point.

Oh, right, you know how I said I already explained it, Dormio? When you kept harrassing me about 49 because you can't read? RIGHT FUCKING HERE

HW 66 IS actually kind of bad in retrospect. I feel kind of dumb for answering it with, like, 3 people posting. That said, I did have reads so I guess it didn't seem so weird to answer but...yeah, this is going to start a tunnel. Do not like.

Dormio 75 WAIT WAIT WAIT! So, you're not only proposing the bus theory here but...you even ACKNOWLEDGE the Mark of the Wolf mechanic? WHAT THE FUCK DORMIO!?

You know, I'm beginning to get the impression that this 5 page pre confirm phase does nothing but force you to focus on the people who were posting. I mean, I still am fine with my observations, but I think from now on I'm going to ignore it as a thing in my rereads.

Kiro 137 is slightly alarming. Dormio made the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT. I don't understand why he doesn't get mentioned for doing so.

HW 144: My problem with it now is that it still locks people into focusing on the half of the playerbase that posted, rather than waiting for everyone to post. That leads to a lot of confirmation bias in general.

OK. So here I'm getting short of breath and my eyes are crossing. I have no idea why but I guess I'll try to press on...

Bard 169: Keep an eye on this. Shadoweh just put Dormio to being tied with Kiro wagon. Bard jumped off Kiro wagon and onto LLD, which pushes the Dormio wagon in the lead. Given the lack of telegraphing his LLD vote, this makes me feel like something weird is going on, but without flips I have no idea what.

HH 175: OK, seriously, this the first of two times you do this. What the hell are you doing that exempts you from posting more frequently?

PX 176: OK, everyone is right, what the fuck is this? First you get off me despite me doing something you don't like, then ask me questions I already answered. Then you follow up with an ill explained vote on LLD. Why did you vote LLD then?

Dorian's first post is utterly useless, as discussed.

UK 181: I am fairly sure PX never answers this. If he does, I'll this, but if not, PX, please answer this shit

Hmm, Bard, I don't think I ever really piggybacked any point of yours on PX. I actually stated PX was weird fairly soon after he made his LLD vote post. Yes, you questioned him first asking about his bandwagon hop, but once you pointed out PX made an awful post I asked a more specific question that wasn't necessarily in line with your own. But yeah, stuff.

I'd poke Dorian about "what clarification" but GUESS WHAT HE WAS REPLACED :V :V :V

Hourai 191: This post is a lot worse than I remember it. Much of it is fence sitting, some defending Dormio just as vaguely as Dormio attacks people, a weird attack on Schezo and...uh...no commentary on LLD? You're Chaore prod in particularly looks fence sitty as hell. What did you actually think of Chaore then?

Shadoweh 195: Answering you now Shadoweh, my opinion of Chaore is he made a solid post, and that he needs to make more of them. And that Hourai's post feels odd, to the point I need to revisit it once we have flips. Also, Dormio never actually did that thing you asked him, sooooo.

Schezo 205 makes me kind of happy about Schezo. The start of his post is echoing a lot of what I'm saying in this post. This is a good thing. However, his points about myself and Kiro feel weird, especially given that he seems to be setting it up so that only one of Kiro and I can be town. Which is weird at this point in the game.

Dormio 220: This is Dormio not really doing what Shadoweh asked of him. His case on K4U makes sense, and also Shadoweh asked him for opinions on everyone.

HW 222: OK, yeah, his defense was bad. He misreps Shadoweh's point about the coasting, since as far as I understand it the real problem was forcing people into a case box on like, the four people that had actually posted that were not Bard. I'm not really sure the reaction part was particularly scummy. Anyway, I can kind of see where Shadoweh is coming from. That said, I notice he still actively posts reads after his defense...though his case is on his counterwagon. Hmm.

HW 226: LLD is right that "solid post" reads just about the same as saying he's town.

PX 283: That weird post that you NEVER MENTIONED EVER BEFORE EVER THAT OCCURRED AT THE START OF THE DAY? Uh, what? No, seriously


Tell me again. What changed between her not posting and you voting? Bard voting her?

I have to stop here because MotK is lagging the fuck out.

[UncertainJakutten]

tl;dr: (I got to the end of page 10)

Hmm...I think I want to see either Dormio's or PX's flip at this point. PX possibly first to confirm if his vote for LLD was an intentional counterwagon effort. The only thing that pokes holes in this is that the HW wagon was also a valid counterwagon. I dunno, I can come up with things but I need a flip first.

##Unvote, Vote PX
FoS: Dormio
FoS: Huh What

None of them look good after my reread, though HW looks the best out of that set. Honestly, I partially have a bad gut read on him and can only justify it a little. I'd probably put him at null, slight scum. Also not liking HH as much as I did. If HW were to turn out scum, HH is who I'd turn to first. SINCE EVERYONE LOVES STUPID LISTS WITH COLORS! I have questions for people in the big post I'd like answered that I'll gladly restate if necessary.


Bard
Shadoweh


Kitten4Conquerer
Kiro
Zakeri
Chaore
Schezo


Hanged Hourai
capt. h.


Huh What


PX
Dormio

PX IS AT L-2!!!!!

[UncertainJakutten]

Quadruple posting for the fuckin win: I will hopefully not be posting for the next four hours. I have work to do. I should have started 2 hours ago, but FUCK YEAH MAFIA.

[UncertainJakutten]

EBWOP: So, my bard cut response kind of got put typed after I typed the Zak thing, but I didn't scroll all the way down so it looks weird. Assume that the Bard cut response is after the explanation of the intent with that post.

[Kiro]

It's a great day to be sick at work. When I started typing, I felt like crap, but as I'm finishing up, I feel better. These horse pills really do work.

Quote from: Kiro on June 18, 2011, 11:42:10 pm
PX reads like lazy. Votes UK, has to be convinced that UK's Bard suspicion was fake and throws the second vote on LLD? Despite it all, I don't see how the vote on LLD fits into a Scum PX intent. He has none of his own weight behind that vote so if LLD actually flips today, I think people would be on PX regardless of what LLD flipped as. Feels more Townie.

I would like to know what changed your town PX read to a scum PX read since this post. Right now, I'm undecided on your read, which is why I didn't bring it up with the others.

Wow, I did say that and it came up almost exactly as stated. It's hard to derive Scum or derpTown intent from a vote with no reasoning. At the time, putting no weight on his vote felt like a dumb thing to do and that he would avoid doing so as Scum.  But in #283, he explains his vote by first parroting Bard at the beginning. Then he says more after a quick paragraph about Dormio. The part he quoted in LLD's 192 is actually the first thing LLD really said after she came back. It's a bit of a misrep because LLD stated that things concerning the vig are null while PX asked her how it makes "everything that happened null?" Even if the vig dominated early discussion, I don't think LLD had intended to mean everything, just the deal with Bard and Shadoweh. He's getting on semantics over the very first thing she said and not really addressing the later stuff, covering it all in a catch-all statement. This went from being lazy to being lazy and not really parsing LLD and searching for basic points to keep his vote on her. And the one he mentions isn't really a good one. This is where I decided it fit Scum intent.

Re Dormio: the phrasing that you worded suspicion on HW just so you could make a better comparison to LLD is very frown inducing. If you thought HW wasn't Scum at the time, you should have had no reason to phrase it like that, just say "I think the HW wagon makes no sense" and vote LLD. But ugh, you say it so straightforwardly that it doesn't actually feel like a Scum excuse. Your UK thing is pretty stream of consciousness and is such a mess to read. But if anything, at least they're your original points and you're sticking with your 2 scumpicks even if they are hardly that popular.

Not digging Conquerer's switch from K4U's Dormio vote to Shadoweh just for coasting. It almost looks like the same argument LLD initially made on Shadoweh. That she didn't react in a Townie enough way to the vig which is not really something she can defend. Also not sure where your stance on Shadoweh coasting has evolved so that you decided to drop Shadoweh and go for PX. What parts of Shadoweh's last post are you ok with now?

Shadoweh: If you're not comfortable with a Dormio lynch anymore, why is HW the one you want to look at more? What about K4U/Conquerer or UK or capt.h?

I think those are the only questions I actually have at the moment. I do think Conquerer and Shadoweh need to answer those questions. How they took some time to talk to each other, don't really square away any of the issues they have with each other and then both vote PX feels like an awkward exchange.

[Shadoweh]

@Shadoweh: To be clear you support Dormio's case on me? Despite how, once again, the reasoning is vague rhetoric with no actual support?

GUT! But no, I support his 'vague rhetoric case' because if you'll recall I had the exact same bad gut reaction that he did to you. I dislike how overdefensive you're being. You don't seem to be trying to prove anyone's case against you is wrong, but trying to act like anyone attacking you is incompetent and their words mean nothing. And until now this has been your main contribution, defensive painting of your enemies as bad mafia players. Now that you've posted something that isn't 'lol u r rong' I can actually ask you questions about your intent.

Bard 169: Keep an eye on this. Shadoweh just put Dormio to being tied with Kiro wagon. Bard jumped off Kiro wagon and onto LLD, which pushes the Dormio wagon in the lead. Given the lack of telegraphing his LLD vote, this makes me feel like something weird is going on, but without flips I have no idea what.

Can you explain how this fits into your view of Bard being 100% townie? How would PX's flip assist you with your feeings on this? And if you think PX's vote could have been a counter-wagon effort, in whose defense was he wagoning for?

Kiro: What? I'm going to look at huh what because it was requested of me. I haven't decided if I'm going to make a case on him again. My reasoning is that As for pursuing one of those others, see above. Kiro, if our votes feel like awkward jumps onto PX, how does that make you feel about PX himself? It's the wagon you're currently supporting. I have issues with so many people but at least I understand what they're thinking. I don't understand PX's train of thought or how he got to only considering two players if he thinks one of them looks town in the first place.

[UncertainJakutten]

How can I prove something wrong when it doesn't even have logical backing!? I've stated several times why Dormio is wrong. I've shown several times why Dormio doesn't make sense. He just keeps on trucking with awful logic and it DOESN'T MAKE A DAMNED LICK OF SENSE! The person closest to having a case on me is Zak and if he'd get out of his tunnel for two damned seconds he'd realize how what "betrays scum intent" is JUST AS EASILY a townie being wrong, because that's what I am. Further, at least I'm still posting reads and telling you who the fuck I think is scum in my "overdefensiveness". This game is giving me a damned headache and I can't even fucking work because of it. (Still trying though)

Anyway, turns out he DID telegraph on LLD as he links later, and I once again misremembered. I failed to edit that. Since he DID telegraph having problems with LLD, that statement becomes a lot less applicable. And again, I'm not sure how it would have gone with my Town Bard read. It just felt so extremely weird I had to point it out. It still has weird points, but they aren't AS weird as they were when I initially read that.

As for PX counterwagoning, I lean slightly towards Dormio, since Dormio's wagon was the lead wagon. That said, I can't explain why he wouldn't have just jumped on HW in that case. Something is missing here, but I feel PX's flip will show us if we need to look at those two wagons or look away from the D1 wagons. Or at least not give them as much weight. I'm FAIRLY sure PX will flip scum, and that will imply that his buddy is somewhere in Dormio/HW. His LLD vote just does not make sense otherwise. I don't know what to think, just that I have a bad feeling his vote was at a critical point, even if it wasn't precisely a swing vote.