Night of the Vampire Mafia: Happily Ever After

[Bardiche]

Totally wasn't posting D1. Derp. That's why he isn't listed on the later votecounts.

[WHMZakeri]

Thanks for not making me Quadruple Post, Bardiche.

I don't like HW for dissappearing later in the day. That last post I have from him is 148, which means he either did not post, or only posted complete fluff the rest of the day after that. That was also the point before Schezo, Chaore, and other lurkers came out of the wordworks, so I really want to see an updated opinion.

The cases made on Kiro yesterday were bad. They basically extended from the complete inability to realize that whether Bardiche's fakeVig was real or not, and whether Shadoweh would flip town or scum could have a drastic affect on Kiro's reads. Kiro at the time didn't know this, and even if you make the argument that in the long run whatever happened wouldn't have affected his case on UK, you would have to prove that Kiro did know that ahead of time. In other words, in order to prove the case on Kiro was even valid, you would need both a Time Machine and a Lie Detector.

I don't have strong suspicions of Dormio now. I did notice someone point out that Dormio was making no effort to make new cases and was just coasting along and responding to people's questions. I'll be keeping an Eye on him as the day progresses. Schezo also feels like Scum coasting, but his posts are actually contentful, so I don't know if it's sour meta or anything that should be held against him.

[UncertainJakutten]

Bard: capt. h. replaced Dorian, IIRC. So, capt. h's posts are what you're looking for.

Zak: LLD's X was HW...or so I thought. Turns out I was reading "Who is scum" as "why am I scum". Which means if I had been smart and reread, I'm not sure I'd have pushed LLD as hard. As for that being meta, only partially. Yeah, she uses the tell a lot off site, which is why I noticed it here (or thought I did). But, uh, you kind of missed the part where she was saying she was using the tell on HW. So, no, I'd argue that's not pure meta. Sorry?

Her later refusal to answer questions did not help her case though. As for you being wrong about me, I'll admit I completely fucked up there. I was essentially thinking of the game where you were wrong and you were scum...and...uh...the game where you were town and I was scum. So, yeah, sorry about that, heat of the moment, etc.

As for LLD, continued refusal to answer questions was fairly up there. When I voted her, it was because she was dismissing Bard's case with what was essentially completely untrue observations. That pushed her over Dormio for me since it felt like discrediting.

Anyway, Zak, your case is uninspired, and honestly just you attacking me because you don't like my playstyle. Step off and find scum, please. And yes, if you're voting me you ARE scum or stupid. Right now you're stupid. Don't make yourself scum. (Your later post about Dormio and HW is good to this end )

Anyway, my plan for entering today is lynching Dormio, honestly. That said, I do want to reread both HW and Dormio after work, since I'm fairly sure one of them IS scum. Still...kind of sure PX is derp, but Bard's observation does bug me a lot.

So, for now

##Vote Dormio

[UncertainJakutten]

EBWOP: Allow me to clarify that I do not think Zak is actually stupid as a person. He's actually fairly intelligent. When I say stupid or scum, I mean that the act of voting me is a stupid act, or a scummy act. Right now I feel Zak did a stupid act. I apologize if you thought that I was calling you the person stupid.

[Edible]

Stop Calling Stop Calling I Don't Wanna Count Any Votes

PX (1) - Bardiche
UncertainKitten (1) - Zakeri
Dormio (1) - UncertainKitten

Not voting: Everyone else

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

[Kiro]

I could have sworn Day 1 started around 8:30 AM my time. Missed the supposed actual deadline by about a half hour.

There's not that much to glean from LLD's mislynch it seems, due to how obstinate LLD was in general. About the only thing I can really conclude is that I think Bard's reasoning to pursue LLD looks Townie enough.

I see Zakeri bringing up a case on UK. Glancing over it, I both agree and disagree with it. I disagree that UK didn't elaborate what was wrong with the case on her for Dormio and myself. Dormio didn't really have a fleshed out case (better doublecheck if she said that herself) and I was highlighting odd behavior without giving enough conviction as to how it made her Scum. On the other hand, I can agree with a variety of your other points. The point against you is definitely something I didn't like about her and I will assume the past history you stated regarding your games with her is accurate. And I'm sure UK will respond to your inquiries about her shift to LLD. UPDATE: She posted. Kind of what I imagined she would say. Will think about more later.

Checking out Dormio's #284: Very reportery, just a breakdown of stuff without explaining why it makes either LLD or HW scum. But bleh, I believe he's done this kind of "analysis" as Town before. I'll need to doublecheck later. And he feels like one of those "easy to push for mislynch cases" ever since the gambit occurred. Not really confident that he's actually Scum. At least in BGoM, his first few posts seemed ok (by accidentally bussing his buddies) before he imploded if that's anything to base a meta off of. In any case, he does express some suspicion on HW so I do wonder who he will pursue today.

I don't see anything that happened at the end to make me change my case from HW right now.

##Vote Huh What

[capt. h]

Lunch break post. I need to redo my reads after work:

To reply to Zak, yes, I did jump on the LLD wagon. I didn't have time to properly complete my reads when I replaced in, and we didn't have any sizable lynch wagons with only 14 hours to a Sunday morning deadline, so I selected the scummiest person of the three wagons to vote for. As PX said, Dormio's play could have been explained by him being Dormio, and I was very uncomfortable with the Huh what wagon - during my read through of him, I found he was consist in his logic, was for a while the only vote on Dormio who became the largest wagon yesterday for a time, and I don't think there would have been anything scummy about his scum hunting methods had it not been confirmation phase; in which coasting-by consists of not saying anything rather than Dormio's play. LLD's refusal to answer questions directed at her, but rather attacking Bard for "attacking her rhetoric" won out at the time.

At a glance, Dormio looks suspicious to me, but I have to do a proper reread of his posts after work. I agree with huh what's case on him; frankly, while there are many things to attack Bardiche for, his vig shot was not sufficient until proven real or fake. Once again, Dormio being Dormio (like last game, where he attacked LLD for the miller claim similarly as town) means that I'm not sure about him yet.

Once again, my read on Schezo hasn't changed; I would very much appreciate if he would post.

While I do agree that the cases themselves on Kiro are bad, I found Kiro himself fairly suspicious, and I plan to do a read-through of him tonight. However, a good part of his early game was more reactionary than scum hunting, and he doesn't shape up until 219, in which Huh what becomes a wagon through his vote. I'll know if I find him suspicious, scummy, or neutral after my read-through.

[WHMZakeri]

Here's the Thing: I still don't understand the switch when it occurs. Are you saying you thought LLD was being defensive, saying "Stop looking at me, go look at this person?" As oppose to her going "Who do you think is scum besides me?" or "If you think I'm scum for this, why do you not realize other people are doing the same?"

How does using the same meta tell against HW make her Scum for it? Were you saying you were accusing her of Hypocrisy? That because she was using it as a scumtell, you figure that validates it's usefulness as a scumtell, and therefore can be used against her? Or was it due to the Argument you had with her on if Meta tells were useful, and therefore by her invoking meta on HW, you were then allowed to invoke Meta on her?

I understand that once you got on to her case, it snowballed from there and went to a bad place that no one fully had the reigns in hand to. This is why I'm asking so many questions about why you got on her case in the first place. I'm trying to find Townie intent, or at the very least some town-based logic in your post to counteract the vast amount of Scum intent I saw. You practically barreled and helped propel the case on her, and I can easily see Scum UK looking at the clock, looking at Bardiche, and noticing LLD isn't completely all there, and the suddenly deciding to shift it into maximum overwagon.

Anyway, Zak, your case is uninspired, and honestly just you attacking me because you don't like my playstyle. Step off and find scum, please.

You're doing it again~
Trust me, if I was uninspired, I wouldn't have had to make, like, three EBWOPs just to remember to talk about the other people who I had any sort of solid reads on.
And I'm attacking this so called playstyle because it benefits Scum UK more than it would benefit Town UK. Making something like this part of your meta gives you the excuse to brush off almost every case made against you while at the same time giving you reason and leverage to attack the people who are scumhunting. Basically, this style you have actively either demotivates, or aids in the lynching of people who are being pro-town. Additionally, you should be abandoning this style as town since the town that attacks you feel either discouraged from scumhunting in general (by you calling them idiots for being wrong, rather than understanding) or just causes them to tunnel harder as a result of obstinacy (basically what I'm doing right now). Additionally, this also gives Scum a semi-free pass, since they know you're barely glancing over anyone who isn't attacking you, and are more likely to coast by simply by just appealing to your better side and calling you town.

Cut: Okay, Apologizing for the unintentional Ad hominid does quell my rage somewhat. You should at the very least try to stick to phrases such as "Wrong choice" or "Bad idea", something that doesn't imply that you think they have permanent brain damage.

@Capt H: I'm going to reread your posting with that in mind and come back later. That's pretty much the same reason why I'm giving Dormio a pass for his jump on the LLD wagon.

@Kiro: Just for the sake of ease, Could you repeat the case you have on HW?

[UncertainJakutten]

I can't help it if every case made on town me is terrible. I'm not going to play around and pretend I actually give two shits about your case, honestly. I'll answer it because I'm bored and honestly don't feel like working, but it's really not worth the time I'm investing into it.

Anyway, I feel that people create scumtells by examining their own play and determining what they do as scum that they don't do as town. Fairly logical premise, right? So I do feel hypocrisy in scum tells does make a "scum tell" valid for that person alone. Because it stops being a scum tell and starts being self admitted scum intent.

Are you saying you thought LLD was being defensive, saying "Stop looking at me, go look at this person?"

Yes, this is what I thought, essentially. I assume that's the basis *she* uses for the "scum tell".

I'm not entirely sure what you mean about her using Meta on HW. As far as I know she never did. She DID, however, try to use meta on me saying I hated meta (which I generally do, and hey, look at the LLD wagon which even only had a PARTIAL basis and meta and look how wrong I was!). More hypocrisy, though as I'm fairly sure I said back then, it wasn't scummy hypocrisy, it was just her being difficult.

As for my playstyle, you have absolutely no understanding of how it works if you think that it's merely attack those that attack me. That's how it starts, because it's the easiest way to narrow my focus. I know I'm town. Therefore, there is a little scum intent in people voting me, particularly for bad reasons, which are pretty much all I've had thrown at me this game. Including your reasons, which were flat out bad. However, as more information manifests, I do look at the people coasting around, calling me town. Trying to judge my playstyle purely by my D1 is extremely foolish of you, honestly.

Finally, let's call in Dr. Meta again because I haven't had enough of that this game. When have I EVER accurately known when deadline is without getting it wrong at least twice because I can't read times? To propose I of all people would look at the clock for anything is quite funny really. (No, I don't expect you to take this as a serious argument against how you outlined my intent, it just amused me to point this out given how bad a habit I have of greatly miscalculating deadline)

Though, I will state you asking questions DOES come off as pro town. Especially considering it's something that PX and Dormio seemed to miss in the whole casemaking process.

[Kiro]

Restating the case on HW:

He was amongst the people that were posting during the initial Bard gambit. There were indications that the mods hadn't opened the game up and thus, the longer the discussion went on without any confirmation that the vig was real or not, the more it felt like Scum could use any of that early discussion as fodder for mislynch later (regardless of what Bard's alignment is). HW's #64 was a borrowed, but still rather loaded case to get people to consider who else would be Scum besides Bard. It sets up a false scenario that shrunk the focus of the early Day 1 to just the 7 people commenting early on. And while asking such a question, I felt like he was bystandering through that phase.

When actual Day 1 started, he gave a 1 liner to explain his Dormio vote. Felt quick and lazy. He does expand on it much later, but mentions secondary cases on Shadoweh and PX. The Shadoweh case came out of the blue and made no sense to me because he accuses Shadoweh of suddenly jumping to Dormio as if wanting to bus him. No other real supporting evidence for her being Scum. And there's no indication he considered Shadoweh had Townie intent to vote a person he was already voting who also hadn't flipped yet. Are you suddenly scumpairing it up now after you criticized Dormio in the fake Day 1 about doing a pairing? Also, the timing doesn't seem quite right for a ScumShadoweh bus due to Pesco's votecount before showing it only tied up Dormio with UK's and my own wagon. It potentially sets up dissatisfaction with Shadoweh whether Dormio flips Town or Scum. The suspicion on PX is null because I think most everyone who talked about PX said the same thing.

I am seeing all this as subtle Scum intent. I think it's more pronounced than Dormio's floundering, Bard's gambit, UK's playstyle (although my opinion on that didn't change till midway through Day 1), LLD's obstinance, or anything anyone else has done at this point.

[WHMZakeri]

Capt: Your vote post for LLD doesn't mention HW or Dormio in it. Just Schezo. Your post before mentions that you still had to Reread both LLD and HW. I only have your word to go on that you evaluated the three wagons fairly, and I'm not feeling sympathetic towards that end seeing as how you just said you needed to reread Dormio again. I am satisfied enough with your answer  to consider the vote largely null, though.

UK: Okay, so you used her being Defensive as a Scumtell that applied directly to her being scum. The part I'm not confused about is her trying to argue that you don't like to use Meta, yet used it anyway. The Part the confuses me most is where HW enters into the Meta Equation. I'm going to try rereading the argument again to see if that clears up somethings. LLD accuses HW of using the same bit of Meta you claim she's using, You then accuse her of staying true to the Metatell because her feeling that it's a tell somehow validates your read. She then Shows you where exactly she felt HW was being over defensive, but you then got so caught up in her using a tell you thought you had on her against someone else that it didn't even matter if she was right because she was scum. The Argument then devolves into you and LLD accusing each other of using meta, not wanting to use meta, whether meta is helpful, the botanical effects of meta, the metamorphing power rangers, and whether or not someone using meta is scum because their meta doesn't coincide with any previous game meta.

The fact that the Meta ended up being "Said person is too Over-defensive", which I would classify as a scumtell (something that applies to scum in general) As oppose to a Metatell (something that applies to a single person as scum) the fact that you went into an Argument about meta of all things just goes to show that you have a lot of history together.

Okay, so is this version I cooked up in line with what you feel/claim to have happened during the argument you had with LLD? And that your explanation for why it went that way was because you made a mistake in thinking she was over-defensive which would make her definitely scum. And that, as a result of her trying to argue her way out, you simply fell victim to confirmation bias as a result of the way she argued against your using Meta in the first place. This is, I think the closest I can get to a town line of thinking for someone in your position, so if there's anything you can add or change to this, Please do so.

Arguing the clock point is futile, since there's any number of factors could affect the validity of the statement ranging from your selfmeta of not knowing deadlines to deadline realization not being a major factor behind the sudden shift to someone in the scum quicktopic saying "Deadline's in 12 hours, should we have someone push on a new budding town wagon?"

Kiro: You're going to have to rephrase this, because I'm parsing it as "Because HW tried to extract opinions out of people who were posting." In fact, don't bother, because I'm sure no matter how you phrase it, I don't see any scum intent behind it without it devolving into the too townie fallacy. I also fail to see how HW's actions was what caused the focus to narrow down to the people who were posting, rather than a combination of Cat, Food, and Fish all telling everyone to shut up because Our Great Yam-a hadn't arrived and the fact that it's impossible to make a case on people for trying to Lurk through the confirmation phase and have it taken seriously. Your other points are valid, and make me raise my eyebrow towards him, though.

Colours are for fun and profit.

[Shadoweh]

Oh hey I slept right through the post-game day start depression. Why are people clearing Bardiche and UK for that wonderful bandwagon yesterday? I don't know if you're all blind, but I saw alot of 'I have no regrets.' Let me just spell out to you how badly you as town should feel about what just happened, Bard.

THAT WAS OUR COP. A COP WITH AN INNOCENT CHILD-LIKE PART THAT TOLD US SHE COULDN'T HAVE CHANGED INTO SCUM. We just lynched the cop WITHOUT GIVING HER TIME TO CLAIM because you two were too busy pushing her for being FRUSTRATING and anti-town. Yes, anti-town was the words you used, it's almost like you pushed the lynch based on policy for frustration! And you were both pleased to go along with this after literally arguing her into the ground until all three of you were making arguments based on LLD not wanting to answer because omg rhetoric, Bard upset she wasn't  answering questions you could not be fucked to restate instead of linking to a post over and over, and UK bashing her for some meta tell that she uses to CATCH scum.

All three of you were acting like children. Unfortunately one of you already flipped town so my question has to go to Bardiche and UncertainKitten. Go back, actually read how badly you were tunneling, and just answer me this. What the hell were you thinking?!

No, seriously, I want this answered. You're either big-headed town or scum taking advantage of how your gambit threw everyone off their game to sit pretty and throw mislynches and I want to know which it is, and unlike the rest I think your scummy actions could actually have scum intent.

##Vote: Bardiche

[UncertainJakutten]

Well, you see, it's kind of hard to get a claim from someone when they disappear 10 hours before deadline, and there's pretty much no chance of them coming back BEFORE deadline. Oh, not to mention that fact that she had, like, three votes on her at the time. Tell me, had we asked her for a claim while she wasn't even the leading wagon, what would you be saying now? It's all well and good to say in hindsight we should have gotten a claim. THAT'D HAVE BEEN PRETTY FUCKING SWEET. But look at the activity before deadline. Look at the activity while most of us were asleep. Do you honestly think that was a thing that would have happened? What would you have had me do? Switch my vote to Dormio and leave it to coin flip? I very nearly did, yanno.

I think that my exchange with Zakeri is fairly clear in what the hell I was thinking. And yes, I was wrong. Being wrong happens.

Finally, you'll have to tell me where I EVER fucking said I have no regrets. As far as I know, I never said that, nor do I feel it. I'm not going to mope about how wrong I was, though, if that was what you were expecting. That's how scum win, by demotivated towns. So I'm just rallying back into the fray.

@Zak: I'd say that the confirmation bias happened once she started attacking Bard for vague reasons that made no sense, and refused to elucidate them because we were pissing her off. But, otherwise, I THINK it makes sense, what you've put there. Like, I saw LLD try to attack HW for something weird, then I saw her "Who is scum" comment toward Bard. I interpretted that as "Why am I scum" and said I noticed this, and wanted to see how she reacted to something Bard asked. I forget how she reacted but IIRC I thought it was unhelpful. So I said that she seems to be engaging in what is usually her favorite tell. Her rebuttal was the whole meta conversation, which I agree was wasteful. Finally, we got towards the late part of the argument where I voted her because Bard was asking reasonable questions and I found his care reasonable, while LLD was just saying that supposedly Bard was using rhetoric or attacking her rhetoric, and just repeating this over and over despite multiple askings for her to show us what she meant.


Now I have to get back to work.

[Bardiche]

Let me open by stating I don't intend to response to you right now, Shadoweh. Unless you're playing it up, I think your emotions are taking the better of you for now, and in the process make you overlook a crucial fact surrounding the matter, misremember two crucial factors and ignore a fourth factor. The hints I give here are that I disagree with your perception of whether Lambda was given time to claim, whether I was making arguments based on omgrhetoric, whether or not I restated my questions twice and what you said here. Revisit these points and if you find afterwards you're still of the same opinion, I'll rebut.

For now, though, I took the liberty to examine the reason people got on the LLD wagon. I admit I can find nothing on UK except for the meta tell, which was lost to me in the great vortex of that wagon. I examined capt h's reasons and they strike me as sound, Dormio's reasons consist mostly of a report of her actions and what I feel to be a rehash of what I already said. There are no original observations or arguments from Dormio to join the case, which I will note here as scummy.

Dormio, please elucidate why you felt your vote was best placed on LLD at the time, and what principle point pushed her scumminess over Huh What's for you, given you were considering both these cases. (I note with amusement that both were counter-wagons to your own)

As for PX, I do not look favourably upon him. His opening post contains no mention of LLD, but when I vote her, he follows along, despite that nothing had changed between the two instances in LLD's posting status. I myself was guilty of the same, but I believe I sufficiently communicated my motives.

PX, I would like you to communicate your motives in heading to the LLD vote, and why you believed her to be scum. "Bard explains it" is not a sufficient reason.

I also admit some unease over UK agreeing with not only an observation on LLD, but now also on PX. Frightful, considering I am not often agreed with.


Cut. By Jove we truly are a tag team by this stage. D:

[Shadoweh]

Well, you see, it's kind of hard to get a claim from someone when they disappear 10 hours before deadline, and there's pretty much no chance of them coming back BEFORE deadline. Oh, not to mention that fact that she had, like, three votes on her at the time. Tell me, had we asked her for a claim while she wasn't even the leading wagon, what would you be saying now? It's all well and good to say in hindsight we should have gotten a claim. THAT'D HAVE BEEN PRETTY FUCKING SWEET. But look at the activity before deadline. Look at the activity while most of us were asleep. Do you honestly think that was a thing that would have happened? What would you have had me do? Switch my vote to Dormio and leave it to coin flip? I very nearly did, yanno.

I wouldn't have actually faulted you for asking for a claim then considering the time factors, but it was obvious to me how she was getting pushed ahead. Yes, I would have pushed for Dormio, that's where my vote was wasn't it? I tried to bring up the issue when there were still people here with time to think about this and change their minds. I didn't expect much activity at deadline either, especially since it was earlier then it should have been. If you count the hours it was more like a 46 1/2 hour Day 1.

Bard, I don't think you were making arguments based on rhetoric, I think you pushed her documented stubbornness in being unreasonable too far without looking around you and realizing your argument had devolved into 'no u'. It was a bad lynch and I want you to realize this so you don't do this to your next target. I think you're still tunneling. Scum could have easily avoided the whole wagon just to stay away from the whirlwind of OMGUS, is there a reason you don't want to consider anyone off of it? We need to broaden our questions to include the people who weren't part of the lynch to get them involved too. Even if Dormio (or insert victim here) is scum there's more of them out there.

Dormio, who do you currently think is scum? If it's still the kittens, can you try to find something you haven't already stated about them as reasoning? I get that you didn't like UK's #46, and I get you don't like the point Kitten4u was pushing on you about voting in the confirmation stage. If they're scum you'll be able to find more motive in the rest of their posts (or post in K4u's case, but I already asked you to look at what she said about other people.)

Kiro, what do you think of Hourai and Chaore's contributions so far? For someone that's been pushing a case based on narrowing the suspect lineup, you seem to be narrowing it yourself and not considering the outliers as suspects. The people who were uninvolved with the early escapades were you, Dorian/capt.h, Chaore, Kitten4u, Hourai, Schezo and I think LLD, so your suspect pool is like, five people. Who out of these do you think is most likely to be scum?

capt.h needs to give us his re-reads but I'm willing to wait for them before questioning him further. Right now I'm dissatisfied because alot of his posts aren't based on his own opinions. I expect that to change soon enough.

From Chaore, Schezo and Hourai I'd like to see another post today and comments on the LLD lynch, as well as:
From Chaore, an updated opinion on Kiro as well as opinions on UK herself since your case on Dormio is based around his attack on her.
From Schezo, similar to Kiro, since you point out huh what's narrowed focus I'd like you to give more opinions on the six five names that weren't here, and who do you think is scum now besides huh what?
From Hourai, capt.h has replaced in for Dorian, please give opinion on his post. Also, who do you consider the 'easy' cases right now?

I'm sure I'm missing someone but whatever. It's opinions time and I feel woefully unfulfilled from yesterday. I want to know what's going on in those beady heads of yours! Also holy not being cut a thousand times for once! \o/

[UncertainJakutten]

Well...um...I actually want Dormio's flip because I feel it will lead me to the other scum if he is indeed scum like I suspect ;. Of course, I still have to look over HW and I'm temporarily not working so I should get to looking over both HW and Dormio at some point in the very near future.

[Pesco]

Hey Edible Do You Think We Could Get Sarcasm Tags, Not Particularly Related To This Game But For General Use Vote Count

PX (1) - Bardiche
UncertainKitten (1) - Zakeri
Dormio (1) - UncertainKitten
Huhwhat (1) - Kiro
Bardiche (1) - Shadoweh

Not voting: Everyone else

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

[Bardiche]

I take it then you revisit your thoughts regarding the accusation that I "could not be fucked to restate my questions" (I have twice), or that I "did not give her time to claim" - I assumed that the latter was a natural following and that I needn't prompt people to roleclaim when at death's door. I see this assumption is imperfect. Also, I would like to point out I did not call Lambda anti-town so much as that I also called her scum and listed my reasons.

I don't let go of a case until I receive my answers. There was no personally justifiable reason to exclude Lambda from my personal list of Needs To Die, and so I chose not to move off of her. I still maintained clarity of what was going on around me, I am just not in the habit to harm my own case by spreading myself thin and questioning multiple people.

The reason I aim at the people involved in the Lambda scenario is because it is my personal sentiment that they have the strongest reek of scum, for the reasons provided. I will light on others when appropriate.

To light on such interesting scenarios, you ended D1 voting Dormio without ever ambitiously arguing your right. I detect no attempts from you to sway people to your opinion, or no ambitious ones. It's a weak push on Dormio, and the fact you are not pushing him now seems suspect, given he jumped on Lambda's wagon with ill justification, as I pointed out myself. In fact I would go sofar as to boldly take a page from Lambda's book and instead turn to my accuser, as you once again provide no reason for people to follow your vote.

Who are scum? Why am I scum? What are the reasons you can provide to back up your opinions? You've done fairly none of it thus far, so perhaps it's time to scrutinise you. What are your present thoughts surrounding Dormio, and how do you feel about his LLD vote?


Cut. Damnit UK. Get on TS for serenade.

[WHMZakeri]

As for PX, I do not look favourably upon him. His opening post contains no mention of LLD, but when I vote her, he follows along, despite that nothing had changed between the two instances in LLD's posting status. I myself was guilty of the same, but I believe I sufficiently communicated my motives.

PX, I would like you to communicate your motives in heading to the LLD vote, and why you believed her to be scum. "Bard explains it" is not a sufficient reason.

Something actually did change between all of his posts. I'll give you a hint: It has to do with his voting pattern and the cases he makes.

Also, I don't think scum would take the chance of actually saying something like "I'm not going to bother restating every detail of the case on somebody that was already made a few posts ago" There's a lot of benefit to not looking like you're plagiarizing somebody else compared to the effort it takes to make it look like you're not. It's not so much a scumtell as it is a nulltell that people floundering around and looking for cases to make would turn into a scumtell.

And yes, I was wrong. Being wrong happens.

Well, I guess that settles it, then.

##Unvote: UncertainKitten



##Vote: UncertainKitten
Sorry, but Once bitten, twice shy. The more I look and reread through the whole LLD argument, the more and more I sympathize with LLD. This might just be a side effect of hindsight, but the fact is the whole argument is pants on head, and I can not just shake the feeling that at least half of it was fueled by Scum-trademark town-lynching crap-logic. The whole case started out with Bardiche calling her out on thinking someone who was Obvtown was scum because Ms. Obvtown did something that she would have done as town. It's the kind of question that would raise enough eyebrows for scum to leverage the beginnings of a case off of, and calling LLD out on defending herself in a scummy way when she really wasn't, and even going so far as to call it meta just to sound like you have a justifiably strong belief in your case just plain looks like scum pushing bad cases before anyone can realize they are bad. Not only that, but you both had ten hours to think about it, and look it over, but you didn't. You waited until she flipped town, then shrugged your shoulders when no one was around to provide a counter argument. UK is worse than Bardiche, because this is stuff that she should have been able to catch in her own rereads, but she sat in a puddle of confirmation bias, and didn't even think about it until she had to come up with a justification for letting the lynch slide.

Basically, at this point, UK is Either Scum, or Someone I want out of the game. Which is to say someone that I want to lynch, or someone that I need lynched. So yeah, this whole thing was pretty much wasted time, but at least I can say I tried to understand Town intent.

[UncertainJakutten]

OH GUESS WHAT I WAS JUST KIDDING ABOUT READING PEOPLE IN ISO GUYS

My dad is a fucking cocknozzle who just makes plans without regards for god damned ANYTHING anyone else is doing. So I will be away for the next two and a half hours due to my dad's dickfuckery.

@Zak: That's nice. Have fun being not only wrong but quickly joining the douchebag group yourself. Sorry, you don't get to pull the "she's either scum or someone I want out of the game because she hurts my feelings". Own your fucking vote, Zak. You're voting me because you think I'm scum, and you want me lynched for NO other fucking reason. You're not going to be able to backtrack out of this one. So own your motherfucking vote. NOW.

[UncertainJakutten]

Oh, right, one thing I take issue with. 8 of those "ten hours" I had to think about it were spent sleeping. When I woke up and got online, about a half hour before deadline, there was almost NO ONE AROUND that I could feasibly asked to have changed the wagon. So yes, I tried to see who I could rally to making it a majority lynch and got answered by crickets. By the time I started thinking that maybe, just MAYBE LLD wasn't scum, I had about 10 minutes to decide if I wanted to tie Dormio with LLD or just keep on pushing. Neither is a really amazing option, honestly. And then overnight I *really* realized where I had made my mistake.

Secondly, where did I ever claim to be rereading during that 12ish hour period when the LLD wagon got steam? In fact, I am fairly sure the only things I reread were linked posts. I'm not sure what you expected me to come up with during rereads I didn't actually make, and have no idea why you are asserting this when it has absolutely no support in reality?

[WHMZakeri]

she's either scum or someone I want out of the game because she hurts my feelings

pftt bwa ha ha.
Do you really think I'm that petty?
Let me clearify for you.
I want you out of the game because you are either someone who is scum
...or refuses to hunt scum.

Granted, There's not much one can do after they go to bed, but the fact is you didn't take the time to consider if you were wrong. If you can't approach a situation from the point of view that the person you're voting is town, that's one thing, but when you choose not to, that's when your vote goes from earnest but wrong townie to scum pushing bad cases.

[Shadoweh]

Bard, I think there's enough noise between you, me and UK that I want to actually be able to hear the voices of the other eleven players in the game before getting into more fights with you. You didn't restate your questions until the argument had devolved and you were asked to, and yes, prompting people to claim is a thing you should do. Especially since you threw her off that cliff so hard. I can quote where you specifically said 'anti-town' if you like, but you should ISO your own posts and see that. I'm sadly more convinced you have town intent now. Unless you plan to shoot me again or make a case and vote I'm going to ignore you now. Dormio's answer to my question will determine if I go after him again or not.

##Unvote

UK: That's a useless statement. I would hope the person you're voting is someone you suspect is scum. While you do that I'll be over here prodding people in case he's not, okay? And cut it out, seriously. If you don't want town to be demotivated, quit demotivating people, no one likes being yelled at and you could be swearing at someone on your side.

Zak: Okay, I think you should relax too Zakky-chan, come on, group hugs. <^_^> I understand you think she's scum, and she should cut out the personal attacks, but no one needs to be out of the game. You believe in your case, don't you? She's either scum or she's not to you, and if she's not you can't justify voting for that if you're town. Who else do you think is scum again? Let's look at someone that isn't also hitting your rage sensors.

oh my god stop cutting me

[Bardiche]

U: So instead of raging at Shadoweh I'll propose we lynch Schezo because meta demands he is scum AMIRITE

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

But wait, based on meta, Zakeri survived N1 and ergo, he is also the scum.
Game over.




BRB writing serious post.

[Bardiche]

Welp, Haha and I have caught the scum. Game?s over, let?s lynch and get it over with folks.

[Schezo]

Pfft, you're funny.

Bard:
215: Looking at just half of the player base and then being demanded to answer a question over nothing incites them to attack each other because he takes away almost all of what happened pregame so far and ask, "Who would you switch your vote to?" implying, attack someone. 
I might be missing something here but I read

I think UK is most likely to be scum out of the early posters.

that along with a vote as Kiro calling UK scummy.
I feel the Kiro case is weak because I still don't fully understand the reasoning behind it.  And when I asked UK this is what she gave me.

It's the fact that Kiro has mostly had tunnel vision on me for being "weird", not scummy. I'm not getting a strong scumhunty vibe from there. I'm getting more of a "Let's see what will stick" vibe.

So I'll just ask again since I still think UK has a case on Kiro.  Can you do the whole links to posts and analysis on scum intent because I still can't find it just off of that.

Kiro:
219: Dormio fits into things when huh what flips scum is that I think they are distancing each other since at the very beginning I think huh what is bussing Dormio to keep the heat off him if we went that way yesterday since Dormio had already dug himself a huge hole with his pregame play, and has done nothing to make me think better of him.

huh what:  I'm still not impressed by his responses since I made my case on him here and more here and I still believe my reasoning stands for why I want him lynched.  You can disagree with me but I still think that making people vote others along with the obligatory "why" while factoring out a huge part of the day effectively since not seeing Bards flip would make most of the things he did null along with people's responses to it if they never found out.  The way you word you 64 states this, and if he's a dead man with nothing to be gained by pursuing, nobody will pursue it.
##Vote: huh what

Shadoweh: LLD reads will come later since I'm running out of time for this post.
I still think Dormio is scum with huh what.  I would like for Hourai to say what he thinks about me now since his attack on me was based off of my one post and I don't know if he still thinks I'm scum or not.  I can't make anything out of capt h until he posts a case and Chaore is just kinda there, but I don't see anything wrong right now.

[Bardiche]

Also I'd post seriously right now but I'm raging pretty hard because every game I get "Oh, okay, I'll just do this! ^_^" and then get ignored. It's so much sadfaze because everything makes perfect logical sense to me, except when you reason in a completely different world from the rest it's always so AAAAAH WORDS ARE HARD WHAT IS ENGLISHinsertkoreangibberish一不做二不休。

[Chaore]

@LLD Lynch: Normally I'd be angrier, but I get -exactly- what was going through the minds of the players on this wagon. LLD looked terrible if only for her play style and huge post that seemed to be essentially a ragequit over accruing suspicion. I can not -honestly- say I blame every one on the wagon for this lynch only because at the time I was thinking there was something wrong with LLD and -actually- considering switching to her. I wanted more from her before I made that decision, but I was considering that decision. I can't say that this wagon was terrible and made from a pack of idiots without calling myself an idiot. I can say this wagon however, should've been better thought through and players frankly started it too late to properly think it through.

@Shadoweh: Kiro's continued to go along without any real suspicions, and I don't see anything wrong with anything he's done recently. He spent a bit longer than I would earlier apologizing for the counter-troll bit, but he makes logical sense. I don't see any scum intent coming from him, and though I don't share his suspicions towards Huhwhat, I don't find anything blatantly wrong with his case. The only thing I don't really like is his reasoning for Dormio over LLD is more 'Scum wouldn't play badly'ish, so it kind of looks more like a reason for sake of a reason- I'd like it if he clarify what he meant there a bit- Why is the fact it's 'Not smart scum play' to play like LLD did a clear on her, Kiro?

As for UK, I'll say it in red in regards to the departed. I do not believe Uncertain Kitten is scum. Townies are not perfect, and the only thing I really see at fault with UK is her decision to lynch LLD. I don't give her much blame for that, even if I'm not liking the whole tell shenanigans that started it. Attacking someone for what she sees as poor reasoning and subsequent fleeing of the entire game does not seem like a terrible reason to vote someone, and it's an action I think town would have taken. I won't say it was necessarily the smartest action, but it was an action I see with town intent.

As for Dormio, Speak the hell up. It's a new day and you have a game you should be playing- Both you and PX were on a townie lynch wagon, and I want to see what you two have to say about it. I especially want an explanation for your vote, seeing as I do not call 'this is what they did, they are scum' as a case, because you need to EXPLAIN why things are bad. PX may not have even tried to make a case, but you're not much better off. I want to know what the hell you were thinking.

PX- Everyone else seems to have already said this, But I want you to explain why the fuck you thought it was a good idea to parrot someone for a case.

[WHMZakeri]

I've actually been giggling a lot lately, so if I've gone mad, it's certainly not the rage version.
I'm doing a bad job of phrasing "Uncertain Kitten should be lynched because she's trying to help scum" if people are starting to argue semantics. Here's a question: Is the major part of my case on UncertainKitten wrong or invalid? Do I sound like I don't believe she's scum? If either of these things sounds like valid complaints about my case on her, then please say so. Otherwise I'm happy with my vote. I'm not angry, and I'm trying to be understanding. If my forceful and aggressive manor of replying makes it sound like I'm angry, then I apologize, since I'm not and I doubt anybody here will ever try to manipulate Appeal to Emotion. Please don't discount everything I've said on that basis alone.

Welp, Haha and I have caught the scum. Game?s over, let?s lynch and get it over with folks.

I hate seeing this quote. I hate it so much. You could tell me the cake is a lie a thousand times, and it still wouldn't be as annoying as seeing someone claim the game is over, town wins as if it was as easy as holding up a sign pointed to someone who couldn't properly speak. In fact, I'm even more certain that Dormio is town just because of this. Just because Bardiche is trying to point a finger towards someone who is not being typographically elegant. For the second time in a row. Bardiche, if you believe Dormio is 100% Confirmed town, please state in detail what scum intent you see in his posts, and why it is something that scum would choose to do.

Yes, I realize the hypocrisy I made just now, but I still maintain that I can't be wrong just for the sole reason being because of how angry I sound.

As for Alternate suspicions, Bardiche has jumped into second place among the people who voted for LLD. Of course, I don't feel he and UK would be scumpartners in this case, but I'm taking the things he says with a grain of salt.  As for the rest, I still feel Capt H is more suspicion than PX, whom in turn is more suspicious than Dormio. Of course, the major problem with having a deadline lynch is that the meat for my most favorite grilling technique is dry and rubbery.

K4u's not voting at the end of the day struck me as scum hypocrisy, which is why I asked her if she felt her case on Dormio was valid. Then I went and read the post where she unvoted, and felt ashamed of myself for jumping to conclusions. She's still bad in that she's a null-read, but she's not exactly the first person I'd go for in the event that UK is suddenly vigged and I have to wait until after the next lynch period to find out what she flipped.

 I've been outlining major points in my reads on the others as they update, which is infrequent since no one's been posting. I'm also going to admit my readings on Schezo and Huh what are becoming stale, HW especially.

Cut: Bardiche, I can sympathize with that feeling right now. Still doesn't change my current reads right now.