Daiyousei Quest - Greater Fairy: Part 21

[Evil_Nazgul0616]

//For the record, GM/Parser =/= mod.

//That answer implied "yes".

//Really? So mind-raping her via a dream that she is constantly objecting to is considering her thoughts and feelings? And brainwashing her into enjoying drinking an entire lake so she has no choice but to enjoy it is considering her thoughts and feelings? Was that whole initial thing with having her eat Yuyuko and giving her extra legs being considerate as well?

[Monarda]

//Why do you think the mod has to answer to you? This isn't a democracy. The mod lays down the game rules, you either play by them or you leave the game. Easy-peasy. If the mod invites discussion, that's fine, but whether or not that discussion has any influence on the decision is up to the mod, not the players.

//Technically we shouldn't be even involving the parser in this, since it is a conflict between the players, we are only doing so because none of the sides understandably want to lay down and give up, and although the part of the mod dictating the rules is true, the mod must at least have valid reasons for those rules, like how the ruling to reduce the number of Daiyouseis was applied to make it easier for both players and parser alike to make and process commands.

//This would probably be solved more easily if you had just put up your arguments for those questions we did instead of saying "You wouldn't like to hear them." and throwing the decision to the parser.

[Suwako Moriya]

//For the record, GM/Parser =/= mod.

//I use the terms interchangably, but I will do my best to restrict myself to GM when referring to Mini.
 

mind-raping

brainwashing

//As I've already said, I fundamentally don't believe either of these sorts of terms apply to this situation. I can't really give a meaningful answer to those questions as a result of this, since I don't agree with their premise.

Was that whole initial thing with having her eat Yuyuko and giving her extra legs being considerate as well?

//That was by Yuyuko's request, which outweighed Daiyousei's feelings on the matter.

//This would probably be solved more easily if you had just put up your arguments for those questions we did instead of saying "You wouldn't like to hear them." and throwing the decision to the parser.

//One of my reasons for keeping going at this point is "the GM ruled that uninvolved people shouldn't disrupt other people's fun just because of personal distaste and this ruling is currently getting ignored". Given that, what's even the point of addressing anything else?

//Edit for terminology hiccup, sorry

[Monarda]

//One of my reasons for keeping going at this point is "the GM ruled that uninvolved people shouldn't disrupt other people's fun just because of personal distaste and this ruling is currently getting ignored". Given that, what's even the point of addressing anything else?

//But doing something that might affect Youmu's mindset causes us to be involved too, because said thing can have consequences that we will be responsible for and can affect all of us, look, why can't you just STOP forcing her to like it and just do the other stuff like you intended with your "prank" ?

//That was by Yuyuko's request, which outweighted Daiyousei's feelings on the matter.

//You never even told Yuyuko how Youmu would have felt about that however, which Daiyousei would have imagined would have made Yuyuko change her mind, and that when it was told *after* all that happened to Youmu did make Yuyuko change her mind.

//As I've already said, I fundamentally don't believe either of these sorts of terms apply to this situation. I can't really give a meaningful answer to those questions as a result of this, since I don't agree with their premise.

//Then what do you consider your actions on Youmu to be ?

[Evil_Nazgul0616]

//As I've already said, I fundamentally don't believe either of these sorts of terms apply to this situation. I can't really give a meaningful answer to those questions as a result of this, since I don't agree with their premise.

//Okay, let me spell it out for you:

//Mind-rape: Defined as assaulting one mentally with unpleasent visuals and sensations. Youmu's resistance to the dream shows that the experience is unpleasant for her. You are continuing to press the dream further against her objections, and it is getting progressively worse for her. So yes, despite your attempts to deny it, you ARE mind-raping her.

//Brainwashing: Defined as radically changing one's mindset. Youmu was initially opposed to drinking the lake, that was until you made the water taste pleasurable. You then continued to use miracles to change things so that Youmu didn't even want to stop. If that's not brainwashing by definition, I don't know what is.

[Neovereign]

//I'm pretty sure both of you have brainwashed others before, and have no right to be judgemental about that.
Again, if you want to get involved with something that you aren't at the moment, then be prepared to actually get involved. Otherwise, unless it seriously affects you negatively, ignore it. If it returns to you, the excuse of clones can be made.

On the other side. Kilga's actions especially out of the three of you can be seen as disturbing at some moments to some people.

Of course, as can others.

In the end, if it's not your problem, ignore it! I'm starting to get annoyed that someone, higher up or not, is having their experiences with others restricted. Seriously. Think of the clones you've made as other people.
I'd state more and probably address other things, but my time is already overdue.

[Evil_Nazgul0616]

//The only time I've done it was out of desperation in a time of crisis (Read: Yumemi's assistance was needed to stop the Mimi-chans) and it was for the greater good, I would never resort to it otherwise.

//Kilga, on the other hand, does it habitually and for his own benefit.

If it returns to you, the excuse of clones can be made.

//Which I would do, if it wasn't so fucking impractical.

//Think of this, if the clone excuse was made, would the masses actually believe it? The answer is no. They will judge all of Daiyousei on the sole actions of one clone, and the clone excuse would be seen as complete and utter bullshit. The clone excuse won't work. It's the reason why I have and never will take that as an answer.

//So, in reality, our only option is to stop things that could backlash on us before they get out of hand.



//EDIT: My proposal to involve Pesco still stands, since we obviously need an unbiased opinion not influenced by personal favoritism to resolve this. (I'm not accusing you of anything parser, it's just that it's the most logical explanation as to why the disturbing stuff was even parsed to begin with and how Kilga's managed to get away with so much.)

[Monarda]

In the end, if it's not your problem, ignore it! I'm starting to get annoyed that someone, higher up or not, is having their experiences with others restricted. Seriously. Think of the clones you've made as other people.
I'd state more and probably address other things, but my time is already overdue.

//However, even if the clones have different overall personalities, the core part still remains in all of them, and one piece of that core part is to avoid causing any harm on the others, be it physically or mentally, and this fits on the latter.

[Neovereign]

//EDIT: My proposal to involve Pesco still stands, since we obviously need an unbiased opinion not influenced by personal favoritism to resolve this. (I'm not accusing you of anything parser, it's just that it's the most logical explanation as to why the disturbing stuff was even parsed to begin with and how Kilga's managed to get away with so much.)

//I've been trying to let all I can be parsed for the players to have their fun. The stuff Raf has done recently has gone far into territory that should've been autopiloted.
Honestly, I personally don't like a lot of the things Kilga's done (growing certain parts and pushing as high as one can go is an example), but I'm still parsing them because the player wants to have their fun. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I can't be allowed to parse it for them. Things against the rules like explicit things, I'd have to avoid parsing.

//Think of this, if the clone excuse was made, would the masses actually believe it? The answer is no. They will judge all of Daiyousei on the sole actions of one clone, and the clone excuse would be seen as complete and utter bullshit. The clone excuse won't work. It's the reason why I have and never will take that as an answer.

//However, even if the clones have different overall personalities, the core part still remains in all of them, and one piece of that core part is to avoid causing any harm on the others, be it physically or mentally, and this fits on the latter.

A bit interesting to me that none of these points were brought up when starting to hook up with multiple people.
Thinking about both of the situations from the perspective of if there was only 1 Daiyousei...
Kilga's would be unacceptable since that's doing something that probably can't be apologized about and would ruin others' experiences with Youmu.
Your partners would have to decide if they were fine with you having already done those things with them, some even without their knowledge. Reputation would plummet, regardless of the outcome.

If you still don't accept the separated clone mindset mentioned earlier, Kilga's actions would have to be denied.
On the same coin, other actions that people could have a problem with because of future consequences would be denied as well. If someone is troubled about what could happen if Sumireko is found out, actions with her in regards to it would have to be ceased, as an example to go along with.

[Suwako Moriya]

A bit interesting to me that none of these points were brought up when starting to hook up with multiple people.
Thinking about both of the situations from the perspective of if there was only 1 Daiyousei...
Kilga's would be unacceptable since that's doing something that probably can't be apologized about and would ruin others' experiences with Youmu.
Your partners would have to decide if they were fine with you having already done those things with them, some even without their knowledge. Reputation would plummet, regardless of the outcome.

If you still don't accept the separated clone mindset mentioned earlier, Kilga's actions would have to be denied.
On the same coin, other actions that people could have a problem with because of future consequences would be denied as well. If someone is troubled about what could happen if Sumireko is found out, actions with her in regards to it would have to be ceased, as an example to go along with.

//For the record, the "let people have their fun" thing is exactly why I've held off objecting to various actions I otherwise found detrimental or individually unpleasant.

//Still at work, will respond to other stuff later.

[Monarda]

//Again, i don't want to stop his entire actions, just the "willing Youmu to like it" part.

[Evil_Nazgul0616]

//the things regarding other relationships is different. Because unlike Gensokyo as a whole, Koa and Cirno will believe us. granted, that does not change the result of the clone excuse with Kilga's actions, since the few who do belive us will have little sway on the masses.

//however with small things like relationships, it won't be nearly as bad since only our partners will be involved.

//Also, unlike raf, I do intend to get permission from Koa and Cirno before going further with Ruukoto.

[Monarda]

//Again, sorry i intend to tell them about it.... ^{_{my memory isn't that good...}}

[Suwako Moriya]

//I'd say cheating on Koa and Cirno is substantially worse than sullying our reputation. Getting our reputation sullied hurts us, cheating on Koa and Cirno hurts our loved ones. (And it could sully our reputation anyway, if word of promiscuity gets out.)

[Neovereign]

//the things regarding other relationships is different. Because unlike Gensokyo as a whole, Koa and Cirno will believe us. granted, that does not change the result of the clone excuse with Kilga's actions, since the few who do belive us will have little sway on the masses.

//however with small things like relationships, it won't be nearly as bad since only our partners will be involved.

//Also, unlike raf, I do intend to get permission from Koa and Cirno before going further with Ruukoto.

//I'd say cheating on Koa and Cirno is substantially worse than sullying our reputation. Getting our reputation sullied hurts us, cheating on Koa and Cirno hurts our loved ones. (And it could sully our reputation anyway, if word of promiscuity gets out.)

//There's also the fact that this is comparing manipulating a dream to something in reality, as well as currently affecting one person (Youmu) or affecting multiple.
And still, I haven't heard your answers to the clone mindset mentioned earlier.

[Monarda]

//Just make it quick and tell me i am an idiot already.

[Evil_Nazgul0616]

//I'd say cheating on Koa and Cirno is substantially worse than sullying our reputation. Getting our reputation sullied hurts us, cheating on Koa and Cirno hurts our loved ones. (And it could sully our reputation anyway, if word of promiscuity gets out.)

//Says the one who started the Hamiya relationship...

//And don't look at me. I've refrained from getting too intimate with Ruukoto before I get permission. It was raf who made her feel our breast.

//There's also the fact that this is comparing manipulating a dream to something in reality, as well as currently affecting one person (Youmu) or affecting multiple.

//it's a dream that, in the way it is being manipulated, could affect reality. And who says youmu in her mind-raped state couldn't affect other people. Plus there's still everything done to youmu in general to consider

[Monarda]

//And don't look at me. I've refrained from getting too intimate with Ruukoto before I get permission. It was raf who made her feel our breast.

//I take the blame for that yes, he had no involvement in that.

[Neovereign]

//Do you still disbelieve in the clone mindset? We can end things here and continue on.
You don't, and actions have the possibility to be restricted by others.
You do, and everyone gets to have their fun.

[Monarda]

//If he dropped the whole thing of "willing her to  accept this" then yes, the rest would be okay for me.

[Kilgamayan]

//Says the one who started the Hamiya relationship...

//Ah, false equivalence! Hamiya was not a betrayal, Hamiya was the result of permission. No lewd acts were performed until green-lighted by the originals. With that cast aside, can you properly back up your claim that damaging our own reputation is worse than betray Koa and Cirno and also probably damaging our reputation anyway in the process?

//Incidentally, I am glad you mentioned Hamiya, because there is actually one rather important detail to that relationship. Once 2 got permission to be with Hamiya, the two of them fucked off to Ayahaus and never bothered Koa and Cirno again, only reappearing to help save Belgrade. The same would presumably be true of any relationship with Sumi, Koishi, or Rika, however sketchy the circumstances surrounding those pursuits are.

//Ruukoto, on the other hand, has been brought into Koa and Cirno's home to live, an invitation extended with the intended end result of a relationship pursuit. You (yes, you! Not me, not Raf, you) have brought a maid home to the family specifically because you wanna get in on with her. How do you think that permission conversation is going to go? Do you really think Koa's gonna be totally fine with living in the same house as someone, for any length of time, that she doesn't know from a hole in the wall when Dai brought home because she wanted to court them?

//Do you still disbelieve in the clone mindset? We can end things here and continue on.
You don't, and actions have the possibility to be restricted by others.
You do, and everyone gets to have their fun.

//For what it's worth, my vote is actively for the "everyone gets to have their fun" option and actively against "actions have the possibility to be restricted by others" option. If that one wins, then I'll be perfectly happy to use it, but I'm still voting against it.

[Evil_Nazgul0616]

//(incoming rant once I get back on a computer. I apologize in advance for any swearing. Please wait warmly.)

[Neovereign]

//If the post does not include your choice on the previously stated question, the post will be removed. This doesn't need to go on any longer.

[Evil_Nazgul0616]

//Please don't ban, remove me from the game, or probate me for this, Kilga, but I really need to get things off my chest....

//Ah, false equivalence! Hamiya was not a betrayal, Hamiya was the result of permission. No lewd acts were performed until green-lighted by the originals. With that cast aside, can you properly back up your claim that damaging our own reputation is worse than betray Koa and Cirno and also probably damaging our reputation anyway in the process?

//Okay, first of all I never implied it was a betrayal, I was just pointing out that you started that relationship. It was never intended to back up my claim, it was just pointing out how hypocritical you were being there about having relationships beyond Cirno and Koa.

//You (yes, you! Not me, not Raf, you) have brought a maid home to the family specifically because you wanna get in on with her.

//This is false. I brought her in because she wanted to be our maid. Like I previously stated, I wasn't going to go full on lewd with her until I got permission, and if permission was denied, I would've been perfectly fine with remaining as "just friends" and having her live as our maid. Of course it probably would've been easier to do things if RAF HADN'T FUCKING RUSHED THINGS WHILE I WAS ASLEEP WITH THE WHOLE BREAST GRAB! Because of that, we were committed, it's almost impossible to let Ruukoto down easily from that and still keep her around. But anyway, we're getting way off topic considering the entire argument started with you doing objectionable things to Youmu.

//Do you still disbelieve in the clone mindset? We can end things here and continue on.
You don't, and actions have the possibility to be restricted by others.
You do, and everyone gets to have their fun.

//"Everyone gets to have their fun"
//PFFFFTHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! IS THIS A FUCKING JOKE!?!

//Think of it this way, if I don't, then I give you, the parser, to deny actions without any player say in the matter. It would turn the game into a dictatorship and suck a lot of fun out of the game. (Unless, of course, I misinterpreted, in which case please elaborate more clearly.)
//On the other hand, if I do and "Everyone gets to have their fun" then Kilga gets to have his fun at the expense of everyone else's. The net result is the same.

//Therefore, as they currently stand, neither option seems favorable to me.


//Also we wouldn't be even having this argument if Kilga had never done any of his tomfuckery in the first place, or if you never allowed it. Speaking of that, I am fucking sick and tired of constantly putting up with Kilga's bullshit. It ALWAYS leads to these kinds of arguments, and it seems it's doomed to repeat itself unless something changes. And Kilga's hijinks, collectively, have given me, and probably Raf as well,  more stress than any of in-game crises. If that doesn't fit the definition of a parasitic roleplayer, then I don't know what does. And unfortunately, the only way to win against a stubborn parasitic roleplayer who doesn't realize the effects their actions are having on their peers, is not to play.

//So, that being said, maybe... If this keeps up... as much as I don't want to... I'll just leave... It's not fun to play a game when the actions of another player constantly leave you drained and stressed... And if Kilga is destined to fuck the game up, then I want no part in it... I hope Raf will realize this as well... Though I don't expect him to.

//Okay, rant over... I need some time to myself to calm down... Sorry that I snapped...


//EDIT: Okay, after calming down and thinking on it some, I have a new proposal:
//A compromise: How about we keep things like they are now, but in the event of a stalemate (Defined as, "Don't do this" followed by "Yes, do it" followed by another "don't") a majority vote by the players is required to resolve it. Does that sound fair to everyone?

[Monarda]

//Whoa... um... this will be a lot for me to process...

[Neovereign]

Sighs deeply//I've been ... pretty annoyed with certain things, and the online game I'm trying to enjoy makes things worse at times, but I'm always bottling it up and keeping myself from snapping. With the way things are going in other quests, I just want to rant to have my complaints heard, but that's not me and I'm too attatched to taking it easy with you guys.  :yukkuri: The actions, or rather, behavior in general at certain times that Naz and Raf show, has me near the boiling point. There's no need to say what those are, but your refusal to cooperate with need to obstruct the third player in their activities is one of them. Now I'd like for this to be resolved and prevent future problems while keeping everyone happy.

Raf, would you kindly ignore this portion?

Spoiler:

From what I can tell, Kilga's current action seems to be very incompatible with your enjoyment. I'd like to compromise while still letting Kilga have his fun, but you're hell-bent on stopping it, so it has to be removed or changed. Kilga, if you could ponder a certain few of your actions affects on the other players, it might help avoid more of this.
HOWEVER, YOU, Nazgul, have CONSTATNTLY rained on Kilga's actions, despite them being within the game flow, and based on your worries. Raf and Kilga have been able to either stand by while something was done, or compromise with the other. If this keeps up too much and long, and you can't compromise because of these worries, I will, unfortunately and heartbreakingly, have to remove you from the game. I really don't want any of you to feel like you have to leave or make you leave, nor feel like you're not having fun, but controlling the game and stubbornly stopping actions without cooperating to compromise makes things like this happen, and none of us want that.

//Ugh, I need something to keep me down before I snap...

[Evil_Nazgul0616]

Spoiler:

HOWEVER, YOU, Nazgul, have CONSTATNTLY rained on Kilga's actions, despite them being within the game flow, and based on your worries. Raf and Kilga have been able to either stand by while something was done, or compromise with the other. If this keeps up too much and long, and you can't compromise because of these worries, I will, unfortunately and heartbreakingly, have to remove you from the game. I really don't want any of you to feel like you have to leave or make you leave, nor feel like you're not having fun, but controlling the game and stubbornly stopping actions without cooperating to compromise makes things like this happen, and none of us want that.

//Just so you know, most of the time that I object to Kilga, Raf tends to feel the same way.

//And do you really think I DON'T want to compromise? I literally JUST suggested one. And most of the time I do want to find a compromise, it's just that Kilga doesn't seem to want to come to one as he stubbornly pursues his own actions. Also just to point out, Kilga almost (read: Almost) never suggests a compromise with me when we argue.

//Look, I just want to get away all this stress right now. I'll be back in roughly two hours. In the mean time, I'll be playing Pokemon Moon, which I was looking forward to enjoying today, but this clusterfuck has been keeping me here since I bought my copy. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to enjoy myself and take my mind off of this.

[Kilgamayan]

//The proposed "compromise" looks nice and fair in a vacuum but I'm not sure what incentive I have to agree to it. Let's apply it to the current conflict, for example. Put the new democratic rule in place, and the controversial Youmu action gets shot down 2-1. So I'm giving something up. That's a part of any compromise, sure. But another part of any compromise is getting something I want in return for giving up something I want, yes? So...what exactly am I being given in return in this situation? I have the power to vote down someone else's actions, but I've already stated that (a) I don't want or need that power, and (b) I have, multiple times, actively chosen not to try to shut down someone else's actions in the past that I didn't like. Meanwhile, going forward with this new democratic rule, I have this to look forward to:

//Just so you know, most of the time that I object to Kilga, Raf tends to feel the same way.

//Which means that odds are really good that I'll be getting plenty more actions voted down, and they're even better that I'll be the only one that ever gets actions voted down.

//How do I benefit from the proposed "compromise"? Honest question hoping for a serious answer.

//EDIT: Alternatively, if the response to "how do I benefit from this compromise" is something along the lines of "no one outright benefits, everyone involved just gives something up", then the question can be changed to "what is anyone involved other than me giving up?"

//I'm not an unreasonable guy (or at least I like to think so) and could certainly be convinced to agree to some sort of three-way deal, but the current proposal looks to me like it'll be a net negative for me and not affect anyone else.

//I admit that I don't really have a good idea for a counter-proposal, but that's because I'm not sure one is even possible. There aren't shades of grey here: actions are either parsed or they're not, and there is a fundamental disagreement on proper "playing with others" etiquette. I'm legitimately unsure of how any sort of middle ground could be found. (My natural instinct then is to default to the GM's rules, but that hasn't exactly gone over well.)

//EDIT 2: And before it gets brought up, I thought about it overnight and changed my mind on this:

If that one wins, then I'll be perfectly happy to use it

//I decided it was said more out of spite than anything else, and as such no longer hold to it. I'd rather continue not interfering, even if given the option.

[Neovereign]

//One: The voting proposal is absolute bullcrap. Two: I've already stated my proposal to a compromise. Kilga, you need to be more cautious with your actions concerning how the other players would feel about them, while Nazgul, you need to let some things go, because they're probably not unfixable if they go wrong.

Discussion's over.

Please resubmit your actions. Kilga, I'd like you to change yours.

[Kilgamayan]

> Just nix the will-enforcement on Youmu, then, since that was what people objected to. Keep everything else, including the PrismRiver ghost wisp pursuit.