NoTV 2 Mafia (Game Over, Scum and 3rd Party Win)

[NekoNekoRex]

Not sure if I can still do this but I'm going to advocate a lynch on PX for pretty much blatantly voting me based on my playstyle/personality and not because he thinks I am actually scum.

[ActionDan]

I did miss Dorian's question. 

This game we had Dormio OMGUS on to you (Dorian) and Oarfish voted without an explanation.  The explanation is 'obvious' because Dormio hung a lampshade on it.  So I thought that Oarfish's vote was not really a random vote, and his vote was therefore a slightly-serious vote. 

Sometimes an RVS vote can be an RVS vote without baggage if that baggage is not mentioned.  This doesn't answer the question of why you'd vote someone (why it's scummy) for not including an explanation for their vote.  None is required if it's RVS, and if it isn't the explanation according to you is implicit.

I'll note that the first paragraph is completely irrelevant.

[NekoNekoRex]

Reasons I'm voting NNR
1) I don't like him
2) His smug attitude and tendency to piss off everybody lots of people will pretty much result in him being a giant distraction, so him gone would probably be helpful for town in the long run
3) His posts so far have failed to impress. Woooooooooo
4) Basically, he's gonna be like UK from the last NotV. Except he's not good enough for the scum to consider recruiting.
5) I'd rather see him dead than argue with him

So yeah, don't really see a reason to keep off him

Like, this is actually a little insulting to me. 4/5 reasons are not based on the game itself, making his vote just a grudgevote on me, and even worse a votepark because he has no actual, real case to make a vote on me worthwhile.

[ActionDan]

I'd say that's cause enough.

[NekoNekoRex]

So far PX has had one content post (the bit after declaring his vote a grudgevote) and otherwise has been pretty much active lurking. He's had almost nothing to say about scumreads and has otherwise just been complaining about me / someone's post error / Shadoweh's wagon without giving a reason.

[SB]

I'm kind of wary of Skypal atm because there's none of the usual insane energy in his posts and the best scumread he put out was basically on Zak for not doing anything? It's not that I disagree with it, but calling out inactivity/lack of opinions when you have none yourself doesn't really sit right with me?

Raikaria, your defense of Shadoweh is baffling and it looks like you've barely read the votes. The fact that she's posting /words/ obviously isn't damning on it's own but when there's no content behind the words it's pretty bad. The reasoning for BT's vote is like... right there. He literally said that he was backing up my point. Also the numbers spec is stupid because anything more than 3 scum with a recruit is horribly imba, and this isn't even helping to catch scum anyway.

I'm still down with a Shadoweh lynch because her CF7 vote doesn't make any sense to me at all? All I can draw from it is that he looks inactive so he should die? She also kind of skips around addressing Zak and only really gives out a null read on PX which is really shitty contentwise. Dorian, why does crumbing flavour make you town exactly? Scum probably have flavour fakeclaims to work with anyway so that we don't break the game via flavourclaim, so.

The Zak wagon kind of sucks, it feels like he's just being pushed as the designated lurker lynch and people are just jumping on it as an easy suspicion? I don't think he's town by any means but the votes on him are kind of awful.

And is there a way to change themes back? Everything feels way too big now and it's screwing with me.

Dunno if we'll get one but ##Vote: Extension because 48 hour Day 1s should never be a thing.

[Conqueror]

Lurkers can be scum. :V
I'll agree that I don't really like my company on the wagon but it's hard to post anything substantial on someone who is deliberately lurking it out.

Scum probably have flavour fakeclaims on the grounds that that's how it worked last game. At least, the vampires should.

Agree that Shadoweh's content is pretty lacking, but I don't know. :V

[Conqueror]

##Unvote
##Vote: PX
Yolo?

If people are wary about voting Zak for not posting, PX is posting while pretty much also pushing a policy lynch.

I'm going to be leaving really really soon though.

[NekoNekoRex]

Sheeping BT but I don't really like Shadoweh's content so far, her posts are full of words but lack content. I don't really understand the CF7 vote but it looks like just a vote for inactivity?

A lot of these posts are pretty wordy so it's a bit hard to get through all of them.
I like Dorian's content so far. His posts make me reconsider some of my other reads skimming through, like Dormio, which makes me feel like he's doing town posting.

[SB]

They can be scum, yeah, but it's not even 48 hours into the game so far so I'd find attacking anyone for lurking kind of questionable at this stage.

Conq, what do you think of Sky? And what makes you unsure about Shadoweh?

I'm neutral on PX. The policy lynch shit isn't good by any means and needs to stop but I don't think he'd rely this much on refuge in audacity as scum? If people have meta here pls tell me.

[ActionDan]

##Unvote
##Vote: Skypal

I'd vote PX too.  I guess.  I'll be around.

[SB]

dan pls explain

[ActionDan]

pls specify

[Dorian White]

So, who is still around and which alternatives do we have to Zakeri? Cause it's kinda worries me that we get a lynch decided by a minority (not even a 1/3 of the player)!^^;

@SB: It doesn't makes her town but it needlessly limits her claim options, which makes me doubt that she's scum. And if her CF7 vote doesn't makes sense to you from a town perspective, I guess, then how much sense does it make from a scum perspective?

Geez, all I want is a wagon I can happily analyze tomorrow, not another day one caused by a  ?minority lurker lynch?.^^; So in that case ?

##Unvote
##Vote: PX

That's what I get to try to push a last minute gut read.^^;;

[Conqueror]

Conq, what do you think of Sky? And what makes you unsure about Shadoweh?

I'm neutral on PX. The policy lynch shit isn't good by any means and needs to stop but I don't think he'd rely this much on refuge in audacity as scum? If people have meta here pls tell me.

Never actually read Sky scum before so I have no point of comparison, but my impression of this game is that he isn't trying very hard. I don't know if that translates to him being scum or burnt-out town.

Shadoweh is more because in the last I've actively read Shadoweh!scum as scum when so far her posting is pretty neutral for me. :V

I haven't played with PX for ages so my only meta is really old. I don't have time to compare Utena Mafia with his scum games right now.

The problem with attacking people for attacking people who don't post content is that it's circular and you can just cut off the cancer at its root.

[ActionDan]

Sky not trying hard enough is not alignment indicative when he wants to self-limit his posts and their length.

[SB]

@Dan, Explain your Sky read.

@Dorian, it's pretty easy to plug in flavour to a character claim, and the vote makes more sense from scum imo because I would expect her to have stronger opinions. It looks like she's dodging around the main talking points of the day and just pushing a terrible case that I can barely understand.

@Conq, I don't need super in depth meta or anything, I just want to know if PX would rely on refuge in audacity if he was scum or not?

[ActionDan]

well with Sky's iso limited to a few posts I have seized upon something that feels like a scumposting.

[SB]

What about it seems like scumposting though?

[Conqueror]

Can't doublecheck but PX posts very strongly as scum iirc. I don't know if that translates to refuge in audacity. I'd argue it isn't that much of refuge in audacity given how he was getting away with it until recently. I think a better question is if he'd pull it off as town. I'm suddenly wavering now that I have memories of a game with a PX/NNR slapfight but I have no more time left and I have to run.

[Conqueror]

Here "strongly" means "with force." I don't know how to describe it. Maybe someone else here can do it. Bye.

[ActionDan]

What about it seems like scumposting though?

in its essence I think the reason for voting oarfish is bs.

[Conqueror]

Eh I can make one more post.

Px saying "Not interested in Raikaria while NNR is here."
felt like posturing and ignoring game state in favor of policy.
which is pretty scummy

[ActionDan]

I missed post #87

fortunately it does not change my read

[Shadoweh]

@Conq, I don't need super in depth meta or anything, I just want to know if PX would rely on refuge in audacity if he was scum or not?

He takes advantage of rageposting as scum, sure, but he actually sounds more town as scum. I mean yes, he could be taking advantage of the way people clear rageposters, but I just find it more likely he's not?

Uhm. The leading wagons against me are a Zakerobot and someone I don't really want to lynch. Seeing as it's majority and I hae to go before Zakky-chan promised some opinions I'm going to vote neither, I'd still prefer a CF7 lynch. I also have to go in 5 2 minutes now so etc bye!

[Dorian White]

@SB: I think that PX tries to make his position kinda bold as scum, which I guess is was Conq tried to say as well, so I could see him going with the policy lynch.
Also, I know my point about Shadoweh isn't flawless but it's enough for me to give her the credit of the doubt (in Dormio pro reo so to say).

Gosh, you have no idea how many mushrooms it takes to keep me sane happy right now!^^;;

[BT]

Oh fuck, I thought deadline was at 1:00 AM my time, not 11:00 PM. Did you know I ran through about 10 rolls of toilet paper today? My nose is as red as Rudolph's.

Skimming the thread left me with no strong opinion on Zak and what I think is a 180 on Shadoweh/CF7. I can see Shadoweh!Scum because her posts are weak but reading CF7 as scum through Shadoweh/Mitsuki being right takes precedence. Read his Mitsuki vote as if he's trying really hard to establish a vote on her with the arguments he's given. What made me change perspectives here is Mitsuki linking to the "are you his scumbuddy?" post which made me remember Medaka and how this is exactly the kind of thing he did then. His earlier Shadoweh read feels insincere in the same vein so I suddenly have an understanding of Shadoweh's CF7 vote. I changed my mind again I'm the worst person. CF7's earlier posts do read town, and the Shadoweh read is a little different to the one I was comparing it to because at that time it was more of a sheeping general opinion thing and this one reads more genuine

you know what, pointing at exactly what I'm referring to here will waste precius time I'd rather use to make non-waffling sense. So:

I still really dislike CF7's Mitsuki vote. It's awful. But that's it. It's probably not enough at this stage since I like the rest of CF7's play. Since I'm able to rationalize Shadoweh's CF7 vote now, I don't really feel anything for her wagon beyond her play being... not as powerful as it can be.

I feel fine with... I was about to say PX/Sky wagons but Dan's the only vote on Sky so maybe not. It's nothing strong though and I'd probably feel "fine" with NNR too. Gonna read in that direction now while I leave this mess here.

[NekoNekoRex]

(post got eaten, blargh)
I feel kinda neutral on Zak, I'm not really sure if he's intentionally lurking as people have said or if he's not actually had a chance to read.
His posts look themed, and remind me of Danposts, but Dan is actually posting so I dunno.
Was his "I'll be gone for 16 hours" really admitting to lurking or just saying he'll be gone?

I guess it's kind of irritating he isn't actually showing up though.

[NekoNekoRex]

Reading through Skypal's posts make me inclined to agree with Dan's read. There's a lot of garbage content in his posts, even when he says he's trying to reduce it.
#85 is a hugely convulted explanation of a vote based on meta, followed by "I was suspicious of NNR for some confirming stage thing I did" (to which my reply should be 'that was a vig?'
#87 is just him making setup spec, then voting SB without giving much of a reason (essentially gut)

I could go on like this, his only seemingly-decent vote is the Zak vote, and I don't even know if Zak was actually admitting to lurking or just busy.

[BT]

I want Sky to answer something:

Conq
Because I thought that reading it the second way was the unnatural way to read it, and I figured the reason somebody would read it wrong is because they have knowledge of how the scum team works.  You say it's the other way around though so @__@

I dunno if this was answered already but what knowledge did you have in mind here?

After reading the thread again I'm slightly leaning in favor of Sky town, the answer to the above question notwithstanding. I don't know what Dan finds so damning about the early Oarfish vote - if anything the explanation in #85 is pretty indepth for an earlygame scum vote.

I'm still not feeling strongly about PX (this 4/5 shtick doesn't do anything for me because he's basically policy lynching and I can accept that), the one thing that bugs me is that he makes remarks about the rest of the game (like the "Shadoweh Wagon bad" comment) without really having an involvement in what's going down. Actually... reading #94 again, I think his remarks are pretty town-looking, so I take it back. Wow I'm great today.

"I think the scum are in the lurkers" would be where I stand. NNR's rush of opinions in these latest posts reads like empty sheeping and Dormio's Raikaria vote followed by "whoop, voting PX" reads like apathetic scum Dormio, especially since he hasn't come back since then. Zak and Oarfish could be yetis for what I know, there's literally no information available.

##Unvote Shadoweh
##Vote NekoNekoRex

I'll vote this but probably vote Zak in less than an hour anyway.