Rhythm Heaven Mafia (Superb)

[Serela]

Honestly I want to townread everyone and Moridin is just my weakest one, followed by LLD. And then everyone else is too town for me to be okay with lynching.

Cut by well okay I can understand that :V It'd be pretty surprising if me and Dorian lived since we'd literally have 100% of the lynch control but when it comes down to minimal-player-lylo anything can happen because READS and SHENANIGANS.

[Sky_Paladin]

Affinity

I'll keep it in mind, though I think LLD voting for scum late is better than not voting at all

Oh my God. 

You keep making excuses for her when all she has to do is open her mouth and talk for herself but she won't do it BECAUSE SHE IS SCUM AND YOU ARE DEFENDING HER.  Holy shit. 

If it does come down to a LLD vs Sky battle, I think she has her D1 conduct over yours at least.

She got on to the wagon at the last possible second and all of that Dan/Raikaria fiasco happened after I went to sleep.  My preferred lynch was Raikaria, I didn't think I was gonna get it, so I voted with town.  Yesterday, my preferred lynch was Lexi, I didn't think I was gonna get it, so I voted with town, and we lynched Schezo. 

MARGHASOUD

Affinity is going to vote me in LYLO, Lexi will hammer.  GG scum wins. 

This is where I dropped my Dorian case because he became obv town. 

[Sky_Paladin]

I will remind you that Lexi's day 1 conduct consists of:
1 - Challenge ActionDan for his vote on Raikaria, who flipped scum (only affirmative action all game). 
2 - Voted alongside Bard (who also flipped scum) against Prims for the vast majority of day 1.
3 - Says stuff like "Also, the thing I wanted to follow up on involves Sky Paladin, so I'm gonna hold on to it for the moment, since it's not relevant to this lynch" and never ever ever ever follows up on it despite being asked multiple times. 

D1 conduct over me how?  Why?  I can't understand you. 

[Sky_Paladin]

I do think LLD should claim but I don't really care whether it's today or tomorrow so if she's going to refuse claiming right now then whatever.

What if she claims cop with a confirm guilty on Affinity (or myself) tomorrow?  How could we believe it? 

She won't claim dude. 

You, Dorian, and Morridon have claimed.  I want to claim.  That's four out of six players have claimed/voted to claim.  That means we claim wow democracy. 

I assume either or both of Affinity and Lexi are sitting on the info we need to end the game right now. 

If we lynch Moridin, and he flips town, scum is going to kill whichever of Lexi or Affinity didn't claim, because they have the best chance of having the power role that would win the game.  It will not be Dorian or Serela, because why would scum!Lexi or scum!Affinity kill off people who won't die in LYLO?  They'd kill their opposite (or me) and let you two lynch whichever out of Aff/Lexi is least pretty. 

[Serela]

What if she claims cop with a confirm guilty on Affinity (or myself) tomorrow?  How could we believe it? 

Obviously you wouldn't and you'd lynch her. I already said this pretty much.

I'm kind of surprised you suggest Affinity!scum nightkilling LLD over the lovers who would control the lynch and most likely lynch LLD (because obv. in a world where lld could get nightkilled she isn't the scum)

I honestly don't know how to parse your last paragraph.

[Affinity]

Sky, could you quote for me in that post where you said Dorian was suddenly obvtown?  That one and the above it is too long and tough to parse, so I need your help on that.

Seconding Serela, it'd just be a confirmed 50-50 where other people are confirmed town.  Sky's last paragraph is incorrect, me as scum wouldn't in their right mind lynch LLD when she might be a mislynch tomorrow.

I made a case on Sky but I decided it was not strong enough.  The main gist is that Sky was heavily on a Dorian/moridin scumteam in the beginning of D2, saying that he would elaborate on the latter.   However, he rather abruptly changes to me and then Bard/LLD as the scumpair without really mentioning moridin at all.  (when I asked him on this end of D2 he merely said Bard -scum, moridin -not scum, which is not helpful).  But to his credit he changed his opinion when Bard had two votes to moridin's one, so I don't think it was at a scummy point in time after all.  It may be something to think about tomorrow, but yeah I'm torn.  This'd probably change with Sky's response though.

And as I mentioned just because four people claimed does not mean that they necessarily want everyone to claim.  Why are you so adamant on being right and using anything and everything to further your opinions, Sky?  It's a bad thing in mafia, worse thing in life.

[Sky_Paladin]

Oh.  It's because in my deep heart of hearts I don't completely buy that you are psuedo-masons. 

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, I just want you to consider that it's possible we could lynch Lexi today.  That's all. 

[Sky_Paladin]

It's right at the top.  Well, just under that bit. 

This was a humbling exercise whereby I ISO'd Dorian, found he was scummy up until the part where I went to bed, and then found that everything he did after that was plausible.  So I'll write it off as a rough start and when I finally had time to read the big chunk of game that I'd missed...sigh.

Anyway I wrote all this stuff up so I'll post it here.  I'm not going to follow the order I listed below, I'm going to do Bard/Moridin because tbh I should have done this first and not wasted time rehashing old territory but I was an arrogant prick and thought I was right so of course I was happy to redo it.

I'm moving Dorian from 'almost certainly scum' to 'possibly scum' along with Prims, Affinity, and Schezo, which is not reflected in the below list.  There's no reason to read it except that I went to all that effort and maybe it'll be useful later. 

(when I asked him on this end of D2 he merely said Bard -scum, moridin -not scum, which is not helpful). 

This is simply because I believe the team of Lexi/Rai/Bard is not only plausible, it is the one that makes the most sense, and in that scenario, Bard is scum, and Moridin is not. 

And as I mentioned just because four people claimed does not mean that they necessarily want everyone to claim.

I asked for a vote.  I'm happy to vote on it, but then we have to go through with it, yeah? 

So who would you want to claim? 
I want Lexi's claim.  And I kind of want your claim, but I'm happy to go before you.  I think Moridin's claim is incomplete and he's got more abilities up his sleeve and I can vote him for that, later.  I want to believe Dorian/Serela aren't both VT's and one of them has a power role because otherwise we have a lot of vanilla townies, yeah? 

Why are you so adamant on being right and using anything and everything to further your opinions, Sky?

I am not trying to be right.  I am trying to get you and Serela to look at the words that they are saying and realise you are heavily biased to defending Lexi for some reason, and identify that reason. 

[Serela]

SkyPal, we have two vanilla goon mafia flips. It is really not that weird for almost the entirety of town to be vanilla.

[Affinity]

What lasting thing did LLD do D1?  She voted the Rai wagon when the wagons were tied.  If she was scum and voted for Dan instead, scum would have secured one mislynch out of a minimum of three to win the game, as well as denying town strong associative tells D2 (which huhwhat and me and others drew on) which led to the lynch of Bardiche D2.  The game could have turned out differently.  But she voted for Rai instead, leaving town in a relatively strong state. 

What lasting thing did you do D1?  You voted for Dan, the counterwagon to flipped scum, and a few token cases on others which did not really segue into your D2 opinions all that well.  I think D1-wise, at least, LLD reads better than you do. 

Note that bussing on D1/D2 would have taken a tremendous amount of guts, because of the possibility of a town investigative role out there, and the idea that there were 3 mislynches for scum to go.  I would not be so quick to write it off as mere WIFOM.

I don't think it is the right time to claim now and I think my reasons for thinking LLD town is kinda solid and not really biased?

[Sky_Paladin]

Lexi has been around in the last hour and still hasn't got anything to add/help the situation.  Do you know why?  She doesn't need to post when you two are doing such an admirable job of telling her that she doesn't need to post. 

I don't know about you; but I signed up to play mafia.  In that game, players try to catch other players doing scummy things, and the only real basis we have to go on that is by the things that they say, and the way that they vote.  We also sometimes have roles that can help narrow it down. 

***

So let's say we lynch Moridin today, and overnight Dorian and Serela explode.  That leaves Lexi, Affinity, and myself. 
Let's even go so far as to say Lexi has a useful town power role, that is worth keeping silent about, and that Affinity is scum.  If she comes out now and says "I am a tracker/investigator/etc and Affinity is scum!", how can I believe her.  Similarly, if she makes the same claim against me, how could Affinity believe it after allowing Schezo to be lynched when she 'knew' he was town?  It's a dead end. 

***

When we have people who won't talk, won't cooperate, won't participate, what's the point of playing.  It becomes nothing more than a numbers game, or a popularity contest, and Lexi is more popular than Moridin because Moridin is new.  Why play this game?  Wouldn't you prefer to play mafia?  That's what I've been saying since mid day 2.  You owe it to yourselves to add value and meaning to your game.  You're just going to let it afk away. 

[Serela]

SkyPal I don't know what to say to you other than that you're being completely delusional. A popularity contest? Uh. Me and Affinity's reasons for thinking the way we do are entirely justified by ingame actions and not on meta or anything.

I mean when you were talking about not cooperating I thought you were talking about LLD.

[Serela]

I'm just going to admit here that I'm considering voting LLD again and the only reason is that I'm concerned Affinity will lynch SkyPaladin if moridin flips town. Like literally the only reason. I'd much rather lynch Moridin.

Meanwhile SkyPaladin continues to be concerned me and Dorian might be a town/scum pairing even though the game would be in lylo if that was true, or if we weren't forcibly survivors than I'd have outted him by now or vice versa as all the other scum flipped. You say we'd wait until lylo for that but there'd be no point?????

[Affinity]

Sky, I do have my own conceptions of how mafia is to be played, and if I don't agree with you then that's because our conceptions clash.  Serela and I have made clear our opinions and justified it to the best of our abilities (I trust), and we are actually discussing it with you.  Try to convince us if you want, but don't you dare say that we are not playing the game of mafia just because you can't have you way.  It is extremely demeaning and insulting.

[Sky_Paladin]

She voted the Rai wagon when the wagons were tied.

This is completely false. 

The tally just before Lexi's vote was:
ActionDan: (6) Moridin84, CF7, Prims, Just, Sky Paladin, Raikaria, (L-1)
Raikaria: (4) Schezo, BT, Affinity, ActionDan
Schezo: (1) Dorian
Prims: (1) Lexicat

When Lexi voted for Raikaria, there was only a very slight chance that he would be lynched, and with deadline rapidly approaching, it was probably more likely that afk!Dan was going to be lynched. 

If she was scum and voted for Dan instead, scum would have secured one mislynch out of a minimum of three to win the game

If she had hammered Dan at that moment, and he flipped green, Lexi would have to explain herself and would be in serious danger day 2.  It was too risky, especially with Raikaria and Just already on that wagon. 

Please question your read of Lexi.  You keep making excuses for her and it seems your townclear is based on a factual misunderstanding. 

we are not playing the game of mafia just because you can't have you way.

You are doing fine.  I'm looking at Lexi. 

It is extremely demeaning and insulting.

Both of you called me insane/crazy all day 2 and ignored much of what I had to say, and I wasn't even calling you out.  :V

[WHMZakeri]

Bowling Pin, Party Popper, Bell, Rocket

Moridin: (2) Lexicat, Serela
Lexicat: (2) Moridin84, Sky_Paladin

Not voting: Dorian, Affinity,
Four votes needed to Lynch
You have 40 hours

[Sky_Paladin]

I am not even demanding Lexi's lynch.  I am just asking for her claim because what useful information can she bring to us in LYLO that can be trusted?  The only thing I've got is my vote and my mouth.  What would you do? 

[Affinity]

When Lexi voted for Raikaria, there was only a very slight chance that he would be lynched, and with deadline rapidly approaching, it was probably more likely that afk!Dan was going to be lynched. 

Fine but that only makes my point stronger.  Suppose she just went afk and left Dan to die?   Also, why do you think her situation would untenable D2?  Other people voted for Dan to and it's quite plausible for scum to talk themselves out of it; compare with risking a Rai lynch and stuff.

For the record, I still think your D2 as insane/crazy.

Sorry for grabbing the last word, but I think this is a rather trivial defense.  As you wish I'd let LLD defend herself now.

[Lexicat]

This is completely false. 

The tally just before Lexi's vote was:
ActionDan: (6) Moridin84, CF7, Prims, Just, Sky Paladin, Raikaria, (L-1)
Raikaria: (4) Schezo, BT, Affinity, ActionDan
Schezo: (1) Dorian
Prims: (1) Lexicat

When Lexi voted for Raikaria, there was only a very slight chance that he would be lynched, and with deadline rapidly approaching, it was probably more likely that afk!Dan was going to be lynched. 
If she had hammered Dan at that moment, and he flipped green, Lexi would have to explain herself and would be in serious danger day 2.  It was too risky, especially with Raikaria and Just already on that wagon. 

Please question your read of Lexi.  You keep making excuses for her and it seems your townclear is based on a factual misunderstanding. 
You are doing fine.  I'm looking at Lexi. 

Both of you called me insane/crazy all day 2 and ignored much of what I had to say, and I wasn't even calling you out.  :V

I... how does that make it worse? I made it 6 to 5 with Dan still close to being lynched and then immediately threatened Dorian with a vigilante soft claim bullet to his face. I mean, yes, it's hollow, but it's not entirely impossible for me. Dorian switched over as did someone else, lynch switched.

I would be willing to say that I was the lynch pin that swapped the day 1 lynch from Dan onto Raikaria.

Once again, I'm only willing to claim if Dorian wants me to. (And I suppose Serela?  I mean she's confirmed town, I just trust dorian's opinion a little more Sorry serela :V)

[Lexicat]

Fine but that only makes my point stronger.  Suppose she just went afk and left Dan to die?   Also, why do you think her situation would untenable D2?  Other people voted for Dan to and it's quite plausible for scum to talk themselves out of it; compare with risking a Rai lynch and stuff.

For the record, I still think your D2 as insane/crazy.

Sorry for grabbing the last word, but I think this is a rather trivial defense.  As you wish I'd let LLD defend herself now.

Literally everything you've said is stuff I've already said.  Sky Paladin has the worst kind of like, blinders on right now. And that's a nice way of putting it.

[Serela]

Any sudden new claim of a role with a guilty on someone in lylo is -always- incredibly suspicious, that's really nothing new. Even if Lexi claimed the role now quite honestly it would -not- be any less suspicious than if she claimed it tomorrow. Scum wouldn't need to kill her if she claimed supercop that learns everyone's alignment if we actually thought that was a plausible role for some reason and didn't lynch her for that, because at minimal-player lylo her guilty wouldn't be dangerous anyway.

It actually really doesn't matter that much whether she claims now or later, except for that I'm thinking I might lynch LLD today just to make sure you don't get lynched tomorrow, because I cannot believe you are scum at all.

If Lexi claimed now, the day before endgame with the situation already pretty clearly laid out, her claim would not be any more credible than if she made it tomorrow. It's too late for that.

Both of you called me insane/crazy all day 2 and ignored much of what I had to say

So did a lot of other people :V I specifically pointed out and explained why what you said was crazy. It was almost factual. Honestly you're still kind of there because half the situations you spout don't make any sense from any perspective, or are just silly, like Affinity!scum nightkilling LLD tonight or panicking over the possibility of town!LLD claiming a strong powerrole tomorrow and "oh no how can I believe her" when the fact of the matter is you don't ever believe claims that occur that way, you just don't. They just result in 1v1s where you go on who is scummier, not roleshens, and in 3p lylo a 1v1 is already nigh-guaranteed anyway.

Man I kind of wish Dorian had said that at some point in his posts now because it'd make this easier :V We're basically just having a semantics argument with SkyPaladin and it's not really important, it's just I don't have anything better to do. Well, no, I do have better things to do, but I'm too lazy to do them.

[Serela]

thank god I can use "okay I have to go to bed now" to get out of this :V I know I'd keep responding even though I don't know why I do

[Sky_Paladin]

If it does come down to a LLD vs Sky battle, I think she has her D1 conduct over yours at least.

I'll keep it in mind, though I think LLD voting for scum late is better than not voting at all

Fine but that only makes my point stronger.  Suppose she just went afk and left Dan to die? 

You keep doing this, Affinity. 

If Lexi went afk and the lynch went sour, of course she'd be blamed for being afk.  Nobody wants that kind of attention, especially scum. 

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM.  You based your townclear on her vote.  And now the vote is not such a golden townclear, you still want to townclear her because she didn't do some other thing that 'scum would have done'.  Why won't you analyse her content?  You analysed my content.  You analysed Bard and Raikaria.  Why won't you do it?

or the record, I still think your D2 as insane/crazy.

Before coming here, I played only outside contact games.  I played a lot of them, and I got very good at picking up when people knew more than they should/who they had talked to.  It's quite possible I am wrong here, but the same spider sense that told me when player x was lying to me tingled when I read a line that I would have expected to come from Bard.  My case isn't "Lexi is scum because she might share a QT".  My case was "Lexi is probably scum because (reasons)" that included vote analysis, posting behavior, and interactions with others.  Moridin, on the other hand, looks like he is kind of a lost sheep with nobody to talk to.  It's kind of likely he is the last scum. 

I just wanted to be sure either way.  That's all. 

Lexi

Once again, I'm only willing to claim if Dorian wants me to.

I am okay with this. 

Lexi

Sky Paladin has the worst kind of like, blinders on right now. And that's a nice way of putting it.

I am trying to get Affinity and Serela to see that your vote on day 1 isn't the magic town clear they seem to be making it out to be.  THAT'S ALL.  They're defending you solely based on this point, which is completely open to WIFOM, so I can't abide by it.  We have almost 30 pages of content to go on, but this one act is enough? 
Affinity was the one who called the Dan wagon rotten, and voted.  You voted after him.  I consider him the one responsible for the lynch, although I will concede you are partly responsible.  I just think your motivation was scum motivation  

If Lexi claimed now, the day before endgame with the situation already pretty clearly laid out, her claim would not be any more credible than if she made it tomorrow. It's too late for that.

The reason I want Lexi to claim is because Moridin already claimed.  He can't come out with a fake guilty in LYLO.  If we lynched Moridin today, and Lexi has an information role, we can't rely on it in LYLO.  OTOH if Lexi could hypothetically townclear a player right now (Affinity or myself would be ideal), we could actually lynch Lexi to get one more confirmed town for LYLO.  Or some other option that may become clear once we have information. 

To be clear:  I am not against a Moridin lynch.  I think the strat of lynch Moridin and then Lexi if Moridin flipped green is not bad and will probably work.  I just feel like, if we have information that could help us be SURE that it wasn't Affinity (or myself) we should share it. 

[Affinity]

If Lexi went afk and the lynch went sour, of course she'd be blamed for being afk.  Nobody wants that kind of attention, especially scum. 

Okay Sky I think you're dancing around the issue here.  I think that scum losing a member on D1 is horrible and that no one would want that (investigative roles, etc.).  You think that scum hammering town last moment and/or being afk is horrible and that no one would want that (scrutiny).  What's the difference here?  Can you disprove my reasons rather than repeat your own, as you usually do?  Maybe we can break the impasse then.  The burden of proof is on you.

I still think that tough scrutiny is more desirable for scum than losing one of their own, because the earlier can be fought through, the latter is a ensured loss of a member.  I don't know, the way you are talking, you sound like you haven't played as mafia very much.  You may tout yourself as having pretty good instincts, but I don't think your though process is sound and thus I'm wary of your scumhunting and play decisions.

[Lexicat]

Serela seriously fuck off with thaat lynching me talk. You know damn well I'm town, make the right call for once, yeah?

[Sky_Paladin]

I think you are probably right.  Losing a scum buddy is ACTUALLY worse than being scrutinised.  However, I think that the fear of being caught is a powerful motivator.  Prims described Lexi as a selfish player which is why I considered it viable for her to kill off her team mate, because what is best for a scum is to be seen as towny.  Then the threat of investigation is gone.  What's the bigger fear?  Losing your team mate, or being caught yourself?  I think most people would go for 'lose my team mate' over 'get caught myself'. 

I feel that you are unfairly favoring Lexi in our psuedo-LYLO because of this one point, when in reality, there is a lot more to draw on than this one point and that one point is questionable.  We have a difference of opinion.  I think there's absolutely no harm in her claiming, and it could save us a lot of trouble; If she gets killed by scum that makes for an easier LYLO. 

It seems that you (Affinity) will vote to lynch me in LYLO and so really, we need to settle the issue of Lexi today rather than tomorrow, because you won't vote me over Moridin, but you will over Lexi, and everybody else except for you thinks I'm town (I think).  I think you're very likely to be town, but it's no guarantee.  I also don't trust our alleged masons, either. 

I am not demanding a Lexi lynch.  I am asking for her to claim, and this is off the back of my many, many repeated requests for her to explain her votes and her actions.  If she starts explaining why she says such things I'm likely to see her as more town-ish.  Instead we get mysterious "you'll understand after the game" or "I don't need to explain to you" or more recently "fuck off".  I'm saying she's scummy, and she's got to either account for herself or get kicked off the island. 

Please ISO her. 

[Affinity]

Fair enough,  I admit I am scared of her.  I'll do the ISO tomorrow with reference to your case.

[Lexicat]

"W-Why are you scared of me Affinity-chan~?"

"A-Am I not cute enough for you?"

[Serela]

OTOH if Lexi could hypothetically townclear a player right now

If she could townclear another person when a third of the players are practically modconfirmed town already then I'd be pretty dang surprised she's trying to not claim. It'd be bad play.

Serela seriously fuck off with thaat lynching me talk. You know damn well I'm town, make the right call for once, yeah?

Um no I don't? Somehow you've managed to become a townread but you're still my second weakest townread. I trust that Affinity/SkyPal are town over you being town. Your votes aren't as convincingly town as Affinity's based on when/where they were made and quite honestly you haven't given much else we could think you're town for. I'm not SUPER CONFIDENT Moridin is actually going to flip scum, so I'm trying to be prepared for a situation where he does not.

I'm afraid Affinity would lynch SkyPal over you in lylo, but SkyPal being scum would be mindboggling to me, so I want to avoid such a thing happening.

If you really are town, you still win when the scum is lynched even if we lynch you first. Do you think Affinity or SkyPal are likely to be scum, LLD? This is an important question.

[Lexicat]

That's a fucking idiotic question Serela. The answer is I'm town and I trust myself in LYLO more than I trust a Moridin/Affinity/SkyPaladin lynch.

I don't think Sky Paladin can be scum here, period. If he is, then kudos to him and I'll be lynching him day 1 next time he plays like this. It's gone from town motivation to just being "too bad to be scum" at this point.

Affinity COULD be scum but . I highly doubt it especially with Affinity's posting today.

So yes, I want a Moridin lynch.