NSP Mafia - Game Over

[Raikaria]

I'l remind everyone I am a 2-shot Fruit Vendor. I have given fruit to BBM and Shadoweh.

Who; by the way; is slowly gaining my ire for her unusual lack of activity. Which is not her usual behavior and could be an indication of scum...

[BigBangMeteor]

Okay, this is why I feel DNA is town. We can see that mafia have a hooker from the fact that I was hooked tonight. Therefore- if DNA is scum, that's what he's got to be. If, when he claimed, the intention was to give out actual results and not pretend to be hooked every night, why would the N1 hook be idled? There was no need to idle it so that nobody could CC being hooked because he wouldn't be claiming hooked in the first place. And if the intention WAS to claim hooked as much as possible, why would he claim at the beginning that he died upon being hooked? Additionally, Sky would have had to be bussing the fuck out of DNA. D1 scum hard-bussing happens but if I had to be like 7/1 or something going into D2, I'd much rather be a Hooker than an Announcer/1x Rolecop.

##Vote: Shadoweh

I've decided that this is better than Zak probably. Her DNA vote D1 came way super-later than it should have according to what she was saying and her reason to continue voting Zak for her first post after RVS didn't seem like actual scum intent. In fact I'm still not even sure whether she actually found him scummy there. On D2 she talked about NNR and Zak in relation to Sky and while the points she raised had merit she never tried to follow them up, or even say which of the two had worse associations with Sky, so it feels like just empty content. Also it's minor but she was the one who put Sky at L-1 yesterday and I feel like she'd be more vigilant as town says the person who accidentally hammered someone in the current SF game

[Bardiche]

We don't actually know that it'd be 7/1. Do we have confirmation anywhere that we've got 8 town 2 scum? 8/2 seems unbalanced with three investigative roles and one "look I'm not the roleblock" role, whereas all Scum get are ro?le?cop and roleblock. I certainly don't rule out some scum skullduggery and don't think it's plausible someone'd panic so much over being L-3 that they'd misread their role so much. (Please keep that in mind because it is important: his alibi is panic, the truth of the matter is he had two votes on him with 5 necessary to lynch.)

Here it is. He also follows up with "let me explain why Sky Pal" which seemed a little unnecessary if it was Not Me over Me, but I see the rest of you have already made up your minds and accept a premises of three investigative roles that are all Town-aligned and the most flimsy of them being accurate. I don't like any kind of attitude where someone throws tantrums and demands to be trusted because it's "reasonable" in a game designed around suspecting others and deceiving others.

I don't like BBM's argument with regards to Shadoweh's vote, as she was pretty clear that she wanted a lynch to happen as there had been a fight with DNA baiting NNR and nothing productive was being done. I still hold that Shadoweh and Zakeri mark themselves equally by a plain absence of desire to play, and I find DNA to be exhibiting more actively scummy elements. I don't like BBM's zealous defence of DNA, especially not when I think about it, there's no way his logic holds about checking anything: realistically, scum would kill one of them and roleblock the other. There's no way scum can afford letting an investigation role survive.

We have a one-shot Daycop, a one-shot Rol?e?co?p and a two-shot Fruit Vendor (claimed), then an infinite Tracker and infinite Weak Cop/Visitor. Do forgive me if I raise a frown at all that.

In any case, I'd rather remain staunch in lynching DNA, given that most of my problems with Shadoweh and Zakeri lie in disappointment with them for refusing to play rather than actively scummy things. If we must lynch, I'd rather lynch Zakeri first for his utterly reactionary play D1 that exhibited no initiative whatsoever and his subsequent "let the vocal ones fight it out" behaviour.

##Unvote
##Vote: Zakeri

[Shadoweh]

Someone hit me in the face with a tomato last night. >:C
No, we have no confirmation of the ratios. 7/3 would be way too much though even if everyone was a cop. No matter what there's probably only two scum, hence this game still being easy modo + another clear from DNA. I'd posit a 7-2-1 ratio but there's been nothing resembling an extra kill.

Actually I didn't realize he was at L-2. I looked away briefly when Junko outted being a daycop, which he shouldn't have done until he got the result for see prev reason, but oh well. I'm not a doctor (I doubt one exists, they would have protected the daycop with unclaimed results, yes?), I'm some idiot who gets hit in the stomach with a football which is probably why I'm VT. It's kind of annoying that everyone else seems to be randomly kooky and I have nothing again. >_>

Considering a theoretical DNA-scum needs to keep pushing out clears I think lynching me would be a better idea then him, and it'd just be odd if he was scum, even if his role reading is questionable. (It's been awhile since we had Day 1 scum counterwagons to each other, I think DNA was more of a not-busser in the Anonymafia even if the other two jumped hard on him) I guess I should actually reread Zak and Bard (who I don't want to believe is scum fighting against a tasty mislynch tbh).

If we assume both Shadoweh and NNR (both targets made very clear both cops are targetting) are town, the scum kill decision made absolutely no sense. Why would you, neglect the cop (me) who can conf townies each night and instead go for the even-night cop (who was obviously out of charges)? In both cases a townie will be confirmed anyway, and the only justification for hitting the less powerful cop is because hes gonna get a guilty.

I thought you were targetting Raikaria actually. Rereading you (something I was hoping to avoid forever) doesn't show you saying you would change to NNR. I guess you tunnelling on him means you thought it would be obvious. Considering I appear to be lynching prime real-estate and trying to find your target looks like a nightmare, one clear has more value then the other.

[Shadoweh]

Oh, someone stuck him in a probation box. That's going to make talking to DNA awkward. <_<

[Raikaria]

Odd; nothing on the frontpage about it. Usually is when someone gets probated. Happened to NNR.

Guess Helvetica hasn't awoken yet.

Shadoweh; I hit you in the face with a Tomato because you should post more. That and I had a good feeling you'd live to tell the tale of the tomato to prove my night action.

I don't think it's 2/10; but 3/10 also seems too harsh; especially with MotK town record.

2/1/7 might be a thing however. The 1 being non-murderous; obviously.

And Bard; the implausibility of these roles all being in the game at the same time is what's making me call for a massclaim.

I hope DNA is either not in the box long or gets replaced.

[Raikaria]

I mean for similar behavior NNR got 72 hours... but DNA was arguably worse. Especially since he continued after I'd called it out once and he'd said he's watch it.

[Vhaltz]

Here's my votecount, have a nice DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY

Zakeri (1): Bardiche
Shadoweh (2): DNA, BBM

With 7 alive, 4 votes are required to hammer. There's 51 hours left in the phase.

[BigBangMeteor]

Bard, do you think I'm scum?

[Bardiche]

No, else I'd be voting you. I don't need to think you're scum to dislike your arguments. I'm assuming you're Town because a scum gambit that involves bussing Sky Pal when alternates were still possible would be daring, but a bit too risky to entertain as a serious thought.

Shadoweh arguing she's a better lynch target than DNA. This is what I refer to when I say MOTKisms that aren't suitable for scumhunting. Argue lynches on the people you think are scum, not on the people you know are town.

[Pesco]

Probation details posted

[Vhaltz]

Polly-kun replaces DNA, effective immediately

[NekoNekoRex]

I'm here, I've kind of lost my desire to continue playing though. I'm not blaming DNA, but D2 left me kind of mentally exhausted from Mafia.
 I'd rather lynch Zak based on my earlier reads. not sure what the votecount is though.

[Polaris]

##Vote: Darkninjaabc

lynch all liars

I instantly lost all motivation to play as soon as i realized how much utter nonsense my slot was responsible for up until now.

I am a Town Visitor?I can visit someone at night, but it doesn't have any effects. Ergo, darkninja is lying scum and deserves to be lynched.

N1 - visited Sky Paladin, but was roleblocked
N2 - visited Zakeri, success (no effect `_`)

mafia sucks why did i replace in again

but even if my slot was lying scum, I'm still town, so I hope you'll judge accordingly.

In terms of actual gameplay, just from memory I thought Shadoweh was scum because she seemed pretty low-key and unassuming for usual town Shadoweh, but I haven't reread since before the scum flip so give me a moment to do that.

[Raikaria]

Here's my votecount, have a nice DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY

Zakeri (1): Bardiche
Shadoweh (2): DNA, BBM

With 7 alive, 4 votes are required to hammer. There's 51 hours left in the phase.

It's like; 4 posts before yours NNR.

Polly - Wait what? There's 2 pointless visitor roles?

[Polaris]

Yeah I just remembered that your role seemed to overlap with mine, so I was just about to mention it. Honestly it makes me a bit suspicious of you just based on rolespec, but no conclusions yet.

[Raikaria]

Except BBM and Shadoweh confirm my fruit.

[Polaris]

Changed my mind on reread. I'd rather lynch Zak.

SB points it out immediately, but I also sort of noticed Sky wasn't actually trying to provide a read on me. He could have been wanting to form a better read and waited for me to post, but there's nothing leading to anything in the entire post.

Zak
If I wasn't like 90% sure of DNA, I'd be voting you right now.

Skypal makes Zakeri his #2 scumread out of nowhere after being pressured with the whole tracker result, which seems like a big flag to me.

##Unvote
##Vote Zakeri

[Polaris]

Wait, I didn't read closely enough. Zakeri was sitting at #2 on Skypal's list from the beginning. `_` Let me think about what that means.

[Polaris]

Totally irrelevant, but I thought this was an interesting quote.

2/1/7 might be a thing however. The 1 being non-murderous; obviously.

[Raikaria]

Well 2/1/7 looks less likely now that you claimed meaning town's PR's are not as horribly skewed. I only said non-murderous because there's been no doublekill.

[Bardiche]

2/8 with one investigation role that has two misleaders seems balanced to me, I'll buy it.

[NekoNekoRex]

That does complicate things a bit, although I don't think it'll change the outsome of the day/game much. I'd still be pretty set on Zak or Shadoweh.

[Polaris]

I skimmed some old games with Shadoweh in them and I kind of want to vote her again. I can't think of a game where she was that listless and ended up town B(

[Shadoweh]

>_> Why would DNA not just lie about his role but who he targetted? For now this is rhetorical, the end of Day 1 really, really doesn't support DNA-Sky scumbuddies. This is just.. He could have outted both the investigative roles, and now I actually have to think about this game. FUCK.

That does complicate things a bit, although I don't think it'll change the outsome of the day/game much. I'd still be pretty set on Zak or Shadoweh.

Uh, yeah, I bet you'd say this, seeing as the thing that just got cleared up is you aren't confirmed. You immediately quit trying to play after DNA 'confirmed' you as town. I believe it's your turn to claim. Zak also needs to claim and Bard I think? I don't care so much if he does or not.

Polaris: I honestly can't think of a game I've been this 'listless' in. Usually I at least have an idea of where I'm going after DAy 1. Not having scum reads is awkward.
Also RE: Raikaria's role, I think the original assumption was Announcer and Tomato Thrower were both useless and scum wouldn't have both. It depends on if you think Vendor/visitor counter each other or if Visitor just gets added to the useless trilogy.

[Polaris]

It'll probably be a waste of time to discuss meta, so I guess that line of thought ends there. Are you guys massclaiming?

[BigBangMeteor]

I'm not sure whether Polly is for real or not. On one hand I could buy DNA faking Weak as town to escape the D1 lynch but I could also see scum!Polly recognizing that he'd be lynched sooner or later for the claim and deciding to change the claim. I'll go with the former for now because I still feel that the initial claim makes no sense from a scum perspective and that DNA/Sky interactions are not bussing.

It also means that NNR is no longer clear... so I'm not entirely sure why people are still thinking solely in terms of Shadoweh/Zak.

[Bardiche]

OK, so how does this sound:
DNA was lying about his role. We accept this premise as true, as Polaris has claimed such.
DNA's claim was: Weak Visitor, die if either blocked or visited Scum.
At the outset of D1, SB suggested that DNA visit Sky Paladin if a No Lynch occurred. DNA agreed to this, and a No Lynch occurred.

Polaris claims DNA's N1 target was Sky Paladin.

Let's assume that Polaris/DNA are Scum. In this case, a Scum!DNA could've claimed his visit on Sky Paladin was successful and thereby clear Sky Paladin as being Town. Given that SB posted a GUARD command prior to the nightfall, it's fairly safe for Scum to hit SB and we'd all still agree it's very logical that DNA survived. A DNA Roleblocker knows his roleblock will make actions fail, so his fail message is easy to fabricate.

Possible logic flaw: Missing roleblock N1. Possible explanation: The roleblock was used on SB to be absolutely certain, a Vanilla was roleblocked, or the roleblock was tactically abstained from. The second option is risky, the first and last one are clear gambits.

In this scenario, a Scum DNA/Sky Paladin team has just successfully tricked Town into believing that Sky Paladin is Town. (At least for D2.)
Possible flaw: What do on subsequent days? They can't have believed that they could survive on that claim past LYLO without DNA dying.

However, BBM Tracked Sky Paladin, and DNA was forced to "fix" the situation by claiming roleblock and retconning his previous claim of dying on visiting Scum or failing his action, to just dying on visiting Scum. (Which is now retconned into not dying at all.) In other words, with DNA claiming to investigate Sky Paladin, I doubt a DNA/SkyPal team had expected an actual Town investigator to investigate Sky Paladin.

Why should you at all feel this situation is plausible? Because DNA demonstrably lied very gravely about his role by clearing NNR today whereas Polaris claims the target had been Zakeri, with a role that doesn't permit any clearing of any kind.

##Unvote
##VOTE: Polaris

Lynch all liars. There's no way I can at all harmonise DNA's actions with Polaris's claims. If we believe Polaris at face-value, DNA lied about his role and he lied about his target, then went on to falsely clear someone whose alignment he should not be able to know, and who he had been suspecting up to that point. I don't buy a Town!DNA lying about his target in order to clear someone he got into a huge slapfight with because he thought they were scummy.

[Bardiche]

I know I indicated before I'd buy Polaris's claim, but BBM reminded me DNA claimed a clear on NNR, but Polaris indicates N2's target was Zakeri. I think DNA acting on Sky Paladin to clear Sky Paladin on D2 is a very real possibility that a cornered DNA/Sky Paladin team could have pulled. The flaw that it's not possible to ride those claims to the endgame assumes that Scum thought it through, but I'm willing to go so far as to say they might not have thought it through completely. And even then, if DNA died and flipped Scum Roleblocker, that doesn't implicate Sky Paladin─after all, SB had selected Sky Paladin as a target, so it isn't like we could assert 100% DNA cleared his scumbuddy. The more targets DNA "clears", the more muddled it becomes.

I think it's fair to say there was a margin for success with that claim that would buy time at worst, and cause a WIFOM situation at best. (Did or did DNA not cover a scumbuddy?)

[Polaris]

It looks a lot like you're assuming that I'm telling the truth -> DNA is lying scum -> I am scum? Please correct me if I'm wrong.