NSP Mafia - Game Over

[DNAbc]

tough as facts are nnr is town

this is depressing, cant you be townier or resort to less violent outbursts?

[BigBangMeteor]

It says that my action failed, not specifically that I got hooked.

I tried tracking Zakeri because Junko had daycopped Shadoweh and DNA was probably going to target NNR, and while I expected that one of them would die I didn't want to guess wrongly and end up with a redundant investigation.

I could reread the game for more associative reads but I'd rather not until DNA gives results. I almost ended up tracking him because I was paranoid about the interactions between him and Sky being a bus since Tracker + Weak role + 1x Daycop is a lot for a 10p game if there's only a Hooker on the other side.

[DNAbc]

also, ##Vote Shadoweh

explain that bus setup now, we have, through D2 managed to narrow down the scum suspects to three person (you, Zakeri and NNR) while confirming Raikaria and Junko to be 100% town. We also had an entire day left, so it was unreasonsable that you put the wagon at L1 so that Skypal can conveniently hammer. This is even more obvious in hindsight when Junko claims daycop and Shadoweh didn't immediately retract her vote.

[BigBangMeteor]

OK so unless it's 7/3 (unlikely bc D2 MYLO chances), me (FMPOV anyways), NNR, and Raikaria are clear, with NNR being somewhat less clear bc Godfather-spec^TM. Leaves DNA, Bard, Shadoweh, and Zak. While I'm paranoid about DNA, letting him stay alive can only result in him PoEing himself down if he's scum so I don't advocate for a lynch on him today.

Out of Bard, Shadoweh, and Zak I think right now I'm inclined to go Shadoweh > Zak > Bard but yeah gonna reread the latter two for investigations.

cut by DNA with a good point about Shadoweh actually

[DNAbc]

Also, the priority kill on Junko is suspicious as fuck too.

This is what Junko told us
>I am a daycop
>I won't have my ability forever
>From the interactions, it appear he can only use his role every even night, for he needs to be silenced for an entire day first as a prerequisite

I am taking roleblocking the tracker as a given here because the tracker is arguably less bad than direct copping

If we assume both Shadoweh and NNR (both targets made very clear both cops are targetting) are town, the scum kill decision made absolutely no sense. Why would you, neglect the cop (me) who can conf townies each night and instead go for the even-night cop (who was obviously out of charges)? In both cases a townie will be confirmed anyway, and the only justification for hitting the less powerful cop is because hes gonna get a guilty.

If we assume Shadoweh is scum and NNR is town, things made much more sense. Scum risks getting yet another guilty or confirming a townie, as things stand the latter is infinitely better than the former, as it doesn't outright lose them the game instantly. Hence, decision can be explained and rationally justified, happy end.

Also, Shadoweh's response prior D2 hammering is bullshit. What do you mean by 'we have done enough'? Out of all 3 people in our scumpool, you are the person who hasn't made contributions ever. Tossing an ad hoc at me while shipping bard won't make your completely empty case right. You don't contribute by appealing to the playerbase and riding on the emotional coaster so they overlook your mistake. In my pov it just looked nothing like a sketchy justification to let Sky P selfhammer before roles can be sorted out. This is made blatantly even more obvious when Junko claims and Sky P selfhammered to guard you. Admittedly both bard and you didn't retract the vote instantly back then, but Shadoweh is definitely in a much worse light for not only failing to retract a hastily placed vote  with no good justifications, and actually placing said hasty vote with no good justification in the first place.

do note that I am NOT assuming Shadoweh is scum from the kick off. I simply analyzed the cost and effect of the scum NK process, and concluded it would've made no sense otherwise if Shadoweh isn't scum.

[Bardiche]

##Vote: DNA
Claimed his action's failure would kill him. If he got roleblocked, and you received the message that your action failed, then that means DNA is a liar.

[DNAbc]

you won't have to lynch me, i will be dead at max 2 days after, its either BBM>me or Me>BBM, BBM has a stronger role now as things stand because of the smaller pool of players and the fact that he can tell us who he targetted in hindsight which makes things infinitely better than me dying with no discernable reason.

[Bardiche]

Above meaning his action's failure should have caused his death, not magically let him live for no clear reason.

[DNAbc]

cut by bard what i succeeded

[DNAbc]

The issue of me dying when I am blocked aside my action definitely succeeded.

If you are a jailer than you are on the wrong person, do you remember this post?

i didn't actually ask vhaltz why i didn't die to be fair.

i will admit here if i am not actually docced then i could've possibly made a wrong assumption in the D1 claim because time was so tight and i took the flavor over the actual words after the bolded command.

as fellow town PRs you should share a similar PM format with me which means only our actions are in bold, and after that is the literal description of our abilities, i read too deep into even the words (aka the flavour) throughout the whole PM and might have misunderstood something

BUT even so theres absolutely no reason to out our doctor if we DO have one, and theres absolutely no reason too to suspect me being scum because i am not playing perfectly under incredible stress and time constrains. i am sending a PM to ask Vhaltz to clarify on what abilities i do have and i am expecting things to be cleared up

yep, i probably misunderstood something on my part, but since this additional detail would benefit scum more than town as things stand and has no impact on the wagons whatsoever atm i still see no need to retconn or alter anything.

lynch priority list

Sky P>NNR>Zakeri=Shadoweh

but as scum likely only has one roleblocker remaining, it means that if i succeeded, bard is blocked. but this means one between bard and BBM is lying? hell no. bard, you are probably misguided or fucked up your interpretation of my roleclaim. shoot me with your questions

[DNAbc]

Lynch Priority list:

Shadoweh>Bard>Zakeri

[Bardiche]

Ref

I am the town weak visitor, I essentially visit people each night, if their alignment is scum or i fail my investigation, i die.

What exactly am I misinterpreting here?

You made a roleclaim, then BBM turned out to be an actual Tracker and your role suddenly "fails", you "misread" your role PM's flavour for actual ability text and your claim to being a third investigation role is "misinterpreted lol sry"?
I don't buy that a) Town has three investigative roles alongside b) an investigative role that misreads their role PM so severely they mistakenly believe they die after copping someone/failing their action but not until c) that person's supposed action actually fails.

I don't like your gameplay for a number of reasons outside of the weird role business surrounding you. For instance:

the priority kill on Junko is suspicious as fuck too.

This line is intended to make it seem like killing Junko has some sort of higher value, when it really doesn't. If scum play it safe, then they always kill Junko to prevent a Town!Shadoweh from being cleared or a Scum!Shadoweh from being outed. There's no "suspicious", it's risk-free scum play. If they wanted to be risky (and Shadoweh isn't Scum), then they would've killed Shadoweh instead, but in all other cases it's a logical and understandable kill. Using Nightkill spec to throw shit onto people while coming in with a wrong basis is the basis of actual scummy play. Throwing fits and insults at people who suspect you is also an appeal to emotion moreso than a legit defence.

[DNAbc]

what are you talking about? i can account for reason a) three investigative roles, my explanation is simply that last scum member may be a godfather roleblocker, but this is baseless rolespeccing and i don't like throwing this shit at people. Besides, my exchange with NNR felt like genuine townie frustration and I tend to misread him as scum alot too. I feel that I am willing to take this risk after analyzing the trend and coming to as close an objective conclusion as possible.

for b)my stupidity i will have to shove this in your face;deal with it. I had 30 minutes remaining and I was groggy from waking up. I pretty much was recalling from memory the details of my role back then while multitasking skimming the posts and getting a grip on the situation. i have the right to be confused and you are needlessly exaggerating this point of speculation and convincing yourself that i am lying instead of realistically trusting me. get real.

i feel c) is a subpoint of me that has the premises of me lying in the first place of which i am going to respond, screw this, if you dont prove point b i have no need to answer this sub point that has me lying as the premises

----------
also, that analysis is NOT nightkill spec. there is a big difference between confirming a town and getting a guilty cop result. former means game is harder but still winnable. latter means scum lose their last member if cop lives to tell the tale. its a simple decision process that could not have resulted otherwise. you really, realy, really need to goddamn understand and at least trust me for today.

-----
The reason I am actually bothering to respond to you is because I am pretty sure you are a misguided VT trying to be helpful. Because I don't think there is a godfather roleblocker and that divergence in our interpretations of balance cannot be objectively used as an argument and cannot be proved anyway. It might be that the mod decided to be generous and experimental with our playerbase and see how well town would do with more PRs. It could also be simply that BBM happened to get a guilty track on scum N1 so the game seems much easier than it should've been and you are worried because it seemed too easy.

[DNAbc]

in a nutshell we lucked out, hard, in this game. if my visiting or raikaria's fruit selling was tracked to a dead townie, then that pretty much will set up a certain lynch. also weak visitor does give alot of room to be effed with even if i hit scum.  the only actual reliable investigation role is the daycop, who needed to be a lurker for the entirety of D1 and not get lynched and suspected afterwards. we are having a breeze because we are lucky, thats it. if you still have more problems ask me


but before that, give me your reads and opinions on shadoweh and zakeri. thanks

[BigBangMeteor]

I still don't think it's worth lynching DNA today. If we lynch one of Zak/Shadoweh:

best case scenario: we lynch scum, game ends
worst case scenario: DNA targets the other tonight- he will either need to be hooked again, in which case if he's scum faking I'm free to track him and see, OR he clears the other, in which case we're lynching between DNA/Bard, OR he dies and we're lynching between the other/Bard.

if we lynch DNA:

best case scenario: same as above
worst case scenario: he's town; I get hooked, and we're lynching between Zak/Shadoweh/Bard tomorrow.

also like... maybe I'm overestimating DNA but on some level I don't feel as if he would claim an investigation role that not only forces him to give clears every day, but also prevents him from ever claiming hooked without looking super-fishy. It seems more likely that he did actually mess up reading the role PM, even if that means that this game is townsided.

[DNAbc]

also if i am scum that would mean i bussed sky paladin to the edges of outer space instead of playing to the confusion of raikaria and bbm to direct to lynch somewhere else. and that i have taken a galaxy sized gambit by claiming a goddamned cop role d1 and actively argued to work the scumpool to 3 people. theres bussing and theres being contributive, you are making absolutely no sense here because you have a stray doubt and that makes you discredit everything i have done.

[DNAbc]

cut by bbms

tyyy my fd you are the best

[Bardiche]

I think your unnecessary antagonism may be a result of the duress of being Scum. Insulting people and playing needlessly aggressive isn't winning you brownie points. You pulled that with NNR, now you try to pull it with me: stop it.

Besides, my exchange with NNR felt like genuine townie frustration

How can you decide that? It did not. Your exchange with NNR to my eyes is antagonising NNR and provoking him, which isn't Townie at all. Considering you're doing the exact same thing to me and now bringing up this line, it feels like you're trying to intentionally shoot for that angle.

Your argument regarding point C is rubbish. I said you claimed your action failed. This is an irrefutable fact. That I at all used "supposed" means I doubt you even have an action, but you still claimed it failed. Did you forget your claim at the start of Day 2? It was, "Hey guys, my action failed but I'm not dead", followed by "I didn't ask why I didn't actually die"─sorry, but I find it hard to swallow that a Townie can:

A) Believe failing his action would cause his death and
B) Neglect to actually ask the Mod why failing your action DIDN'T cause your death and
C) Neglect to actually clear any of this shit up until ~33 hours left in Day 2, because BBM asked you about it.

A good Townie would've tried to figure out the conditions of their role immediately, not wait that long before clearing up to people why they didn't die. Seems to me you are Scum who adopted a strategy of "let's hope they forget in the throng of Sky Pal's lynch", and for the most part that has succeeded.


Claiming your analysis isn't nightkill spec is pointless when it all speculates the reason for the nightkill. You said so yourself literally:

I simply analyzed the cost and effect of the scum NK process

Despite you claiming otherwise, you use circular logic that presumes Shadoweh is scum to get an "understandable" outcome from the NK. There's a much simpler alternative:

Junko is read as Town by people.
Shadoweh is read as Scummy by people.
Killing Junko removes one Town-read player, and leaves one Scum-read player as ambiguous.

In the case of DNA scum, we can even add that it permits him to make up this argument to try and lynch Shadoweh.

The reason I am actually bothering to respond to you is because I am pretty sure you are a misguided VT

Lynch Priority list:

Shadoweh>Bard>Zakeri

Apparently not so sure. Are you trying to appeal now by calling me town? That's adorable, but I don't believe for a second you take your own views serious.


Cut by BBM.
You forget:
Worst case scenario: BBM is killed by Scum, DNA can claim whatever the fuck he wants as a Town clear on anyone.


While Zakeri and Shadoweh are both marked by lacklustre behaviour, poor scumhunting and a generally poor attitude and approach, neither of them have been actively working towards a scum goal. Sole exception being Shadoweh's vote on Sky Paladin, but I like DNA as a lynch more due to actively trying to mislead and turn the lynch in poor directions. There was no way he could ever argue a D2 lynch that did not involve Sky Paladin, and pretending that such a thing was a real possibility is misguided at best, misleading at worst.

[DNAbc]

just how wide open is that hole in your brain? you call me antagonizing people when you are very much making so big asspulls of intent spec that makes the grand canyon insignificant in comparison. i didn't insult nnr to discredit his logic and neither i did it to you. it is genuine frustration on my part because you two keep insisting upon a flawed concept of which i debunked over and over.

also i would like to remind all readers here i already made a response to bard's other points and bard is atm neglecting about what i did and focusing on what i did not do. aka using a red herring to distract us from actual contributive discussion on previously nailed down scum pool

also, since the majority of your arguments are stuff concerning my D2 behavior anyway, why the fuck don't you ask me back then? you had all the time apparently and was even online until the hammer. why must you inherit this useless blather to question my intent? with the given conclusion already known (sky p is scum) you can pretty much fabricate things as you desire. of course, the lynch isn't going anywhere because it was on sky p. i have no idea confirmation bias can be applied so wrongly like that.

now response to each of his points
-----------
regarding A,B and C

A: i already explained this over and over, its a goddamned misinterpretation on my part. you are just using the same argument again and again with different wording. and my response is the same; i was under huge stress and time constrains so i made a mistake. deal with it

B: why would i even be inclined to ask the mod? as long as i am thoroughly convinced of the fact that i understand my reason of not dying i have absolutely no need to ask the mod because that is an idea that repulses me. yes, i am sick of people posting theoretical what ifs in the thread and i tend to avoid asking mods questions altogether as it is my personal playstyle.

C: I only actually started recosidering the implications of the result after BBM questioned me because i didn't have a motivation to ponder on that result otherwise because it wouldn't have made a goddamn difference to any of the wagons i am looking at. townsfolk don't actively look for mistakes they make that can paint them scum. in fact being overly defensive of your shit is a scumtell, and right now i am inclining more into scumreading you

 to not clear shit up is not an intentional decision, and even when i did finally understand the role i decided it would be wise to withhold that detail for it would be advantageous to us all, if your tiny brain still had the capacity to remember what actually happened you would remember i keep reinforcing the concept that there exists a town doctor who might have covered me even after i clarified my mistake. i figured with my mistake already made it would've been at least better to even further capitalize on the nightkill dilemma for it would make scum more inclined to hit a less priority protected target. my actions were helpful as a result and theres absolutely no problem with that

also, i am not a good townie player, i am a logically astute person who descends upon those of lesser mental clarity like some angry nerd god. if you are so obsessed upon refining your perfect play you can do that. but i make mistakes and i have been like explaining the same thing 3 times already, piss off.

---------------
regarding my contrasting read and lynch order

you are misunderstanding yet again (or intentionally misleading) for the two concepts are entirely mutually exclusive. because you apparently didnt read deeply enough so i am going to spell out my decision and logic flow for you

right now i have these information
>raikaria, nnr, bbm and me are towncleared
>bard, shadoweh and zak are potential scums
>my townread order bard<zak<shadoweh
> my lynch order (before) shadoweh>bard>zak
>my lynch order (now) shadoweh>zak>bard

you conveniently forget the obvious fact that you are the moron who proposed that i am lying about failing my role with specifying the time. my first response was that perhaps you are jailer who tried to block me (dunno why) but failed because naturally it is D3 now and i thought that was what happened N2 you are referring to. that and bbm also claimed being roleblocked means one of you must be lying for theres only one remaining scum member. i immediately understood after you posted this

Ref
What exactly am I misinterpreting here?

You made a roleclaim, then BBM turned out to be an actual Tracker and your role suddenly "fails", you "misread" your role PM's flavour for actual ability text and your claim to being a third investigation role is "misinterpreted lol sry"?
I don't buy that a) Town has three investigative roles alongside b) an investigative role that misreads their role PM so severely they mistakenly believe they die after copping someone/failing their action but not until c) that person's supposed action actually fails.

I don't like your gameplay for a number of reasons outside of the weird role business surrounding you. For instance:This line is intended to make it seem like killing Junko has some sort of higher value, when it really doesn't. If scum play it safe, then they always kill Junko to prevent a Town!Shadoweh from being cleared or a Scum!Shadoweh from being outed. There's no "suspicious", it's risk-free scum play. If they wanted to be risky (and Shadoweh isn't Scum), then they would've killed Shadoweh instead, but in all other cases it's a logical and understandable kill. Using Nightkill spec to throw shit onto people while coming in with a wrong basis is the basis of actual scummy play. Throwing fits and insults at people who suspect you is also an appeal to emotion moreso than a legit defence.

which finally cleared up what time you are referring to when you make this argument, so naturally i responded accordingly and changed my view because of such. the lynch order itself is something of obviously less importance that my arguments so i am delaying this until i have finished responding before updating my lynch order. but right now as things stand you do seem more and more like a misguided townie which i am okay with townreading you, for now. and that explains everything

nnr, i wasn't nitpicking, bard is nitpicking, and it is a complete waste of time, Q.E.D.

[NekoNekoRex]

Where the hell is this game even going any more

[DNAbc]

just ignore those walls, bard for some goddamn reason want to discuss about d2 and intentspec about me being scum

while ignoring everything i said that helped back then and dismissing them as faking.

that said though my better part of my brain tells me its probably misguided town rage, i am really emotionally inclined to scumread him but like i said already its emotional and i dont do that

i still recommend lynching shadoweh either way, bbm had it nailed with the cost efficiency thing. earliest i will die is tonight. latest tomorrow night, theres really no need to stir up this big a shitstorm of drama

that or you are afraid i will probably hit zakeri/shadoweh tonight if one of them is lynched and not die, then i will suspect you, well that makes sense

[Bardiche]

i didn't insult nnr to discredit his logic and neither i did it to you.

just how wide open is that hole in your brain?

you conveniently forget the obvious fact that you are the moron

Requesting the mod to put an end to these continuous petty insults and this style of play that is aimed at making people stop playing.

[DNAbc]

My childish outbursts are immature but they do not justify you ignoring my arguments, I will proofread my posts from now on but I demand a response from you that correlates with the actual happenings of the game.

[DNAbc]

If subtly playing to my short fuse and letting me detonate myself is what you actually have been planning all along then I must congratulate you on having pulled off this feat. Otherwise this is just another slapfight that has no contribution to town whatsoever, of which I do not understand the intent of posting at all.

[WHMZakeri]

I'd say given the events of Day 2 BBM is pretty clear; especially given the hand he had in lynching Sky. DNA is in a similar spot; and of course to my PoV I am clear seeing as I have a PM in my inbox saying that I am town this game.

Really it's not setting a good feeling in me reading that sort of reaction without even saying anything as to try and disprove me calling BBM and DNA clear.

I'm just being cynical. And also Realistic considering this should be a balanced game.
Also, could you clarify on who that last line is suppose to be referring to? I don't remember anyone trying to disprove that?

[Bardiche]

Zakeri, he's saying that he doesn't feel good about you mentioning you don't feel comfortable clearing half the players that easily, but then don't bring up anything to say why it'd be wrong.

How do you feel about scums for the Day Phase, Zakeri? You posted this yesterday:

I would probably be much more interested in doing an actual super read of the game when Sky flips

so I was kind of hoping you'd done some of that super reading during the Night Phase to give the rest of the class a hand in where to go.

[BigBangMeteor]

@Bard- implying we don't have a Doc, there.

I was going to reread and then I fell asleep and now I'm going to sleep more.

also I started making this post an hour ago so I guess I didn't sleep after all but I will now

[Vhaltz]

Demonstrating any behaviour that would've resulted in a behaviour prod thus far will now result in a modkill. Please be civil while playing mafia.

[Raikaria]

NNR is apparently town?

#Unvote

Now back to reading the huge amount of stuff that appeared overnight.

[Raikaria]

Seeing as we have a scum down I'm going to do this again.

If there is a town Doctor and you protected DNA Night 1; you should out. Now.

This explains DNA's Day 1 result and gives us another semi-clear. Which is extremely useful at this point.

A lone scum also cannot mess with DNA; BBM and the Doc at once. If all three are town this secures at least two of them will survive; and one of them will get their role off.

And if there isn't a Doctor? We lynch DNA. This setup is already stupidly pro-town between BBM and 123's roles. A tracker and a 1-shot Daycop [Not even a cop; a Daycop; that's a lot more powerful since it can prevent mislynches and can't be roleblocked]. DNA's role being realistic means we have a weak cop and a Doctor of some sort at the same time in addition.

In fact at this point; I'm just gonna say it might be time to Massclaim. We already have 3 people outed.

I'm just being cynical. And also Realistic considering this should be a balanced game.
Also, could you clarify on who that last line is suppose to be referring to? I don't remember anyone trying to disprove that?

I got the impression from your post that you did not agree with 3 people being 'towncleared'.