SCP Containment Breach Mafia - Game Over

[BT]

My actual real life response to #357-#358 was "nope nope nope nope nope nope nope" etc.

You're trying to say that it's all playstyle when it really isn't. You can lay foundations all you want, but those foundations are shaky. You don't check those fundations as vigilantly as town would; Scumkaria posts a bunch of arguments without furthering a town agenda.

Your case on me is centered around role oddities which are perfectly explainable. It's like I would start calling you scum because you claimed one-shot roleblock in a jailor setup and didn't leave some crumb that you were weirded out at Vhaltz's role upon flip. You're not trying to rationalize my PLAY as me being scum - not trying - because you know I'm town, not because you're content with where your case is. Right now you're defending yourself by citing my experience, not citing the fact that I'm a scumlord trying to get you lynched on difference in experience. (this still isn't true)

Just to add to and summise the above; bringing this new point and my earlier points together:

SB suggests scum has a strongman kill to BT specifically.
BT did not counter-claim Watcher when Dan claimed Watcher. [Afraid to stick out his neck?]
BT's Watcher/Voyeur has failed to see ANYTHING all game.
My role failed on BT last night. A strongman kill cannot be roleblocked.

I think it is beyond reasonable doubt that BT is lying about his role.

Your case hinges on explainable scenarios. I'm sure you would have commented on some of my play as town, but it's much more natural to shy away from that when you know I'm town. You're dealing with stuff as far away from my play as possible - role speculation - stuff that has nothing to do with me.

[BT]

It's worth noting that, IIRC, Vhaltz made the "damn, I think Raitaki is scum" post RIGHT before deadline and he didn't think too much of the slot otherwise, so it's possible he actually would have jailed Raitaki but he just didn't get around to changing his action.

As for me (I'm assuming?) not taking into account role power being suspect... I think I can cite meta here. The only time where I seriously start looking at role balance is near lategame when lynches need to be more accurate. Technically the criteria SHOULD be "after massclaim" but my brain doesn't work that way - it sure still felt like midgame to me on D2.

[BT]

And if we MUST talk about roles, it's more likely that Raikaria is lying about being a one-shot roleblocker AND conveniently failing to roleblock me in order to rob town of another lynch (one that would mean GG). I still don't get how it can possibly be a strongman that theoretically blocked the roleblock at this stage of the game - first, I'm pretty sure most hosts here don't think of a strongman as something that blocks roleblockers (at least I don't!), second, like I said, a strongman most likely would have been used on Vhaltz and having MORE than one strongman shot in that case would be absurd. I already said all this.

[BT]

SO, in conclusion, my play is honest and good because I'm town and Raikaria's play is a mess because... it's honestly probably a meta thing.

No, really, like I said in the beginning of this game, I have problems reading Raikaria as both alignments. ATM I can't see what you're seeing for obvious reasons, but it's probably something that has more to do with Raikaria and less to do with his alignment.

[BT]

Something about his play being riddled with holes as something that can read both as scum incompetence and town honesty. I tried pointing at what I think are meaningful aspects of his play. I could be a little biased, but there's probably something there that's spot on.

[Raikaria]

You think rolespec is the only thing about my case? I pointed that out because it was new that I had not said before.

As well as the rolespec about how it is incredibly unlikly that you are a legitimate Watcher there is:

- SB tried rather hard to lynch me during D1 for a while; and cast doubt on my claim during D2. Why would my scumbuddy do that?
- It makes no sense at all for me to fakeclaim roleblocker as scum; since there already was a jailer flipped. In addittion; a strongman existing makes perfect sense if there is a jailer and a roleblocker on town.
- I tried to lynch SB Day 1; and during Day 2 was saying 'We either lynch Dorian or SB' most of the day. So unless SB and me were bussing hard the entire game...
- I reacted to Dorian's threat to selfhammer. Why would I do that if I was scum? I'd have left him lynch himself.
- NNR calls out your behavior is not like normal and is thus worrying
- Defended SB near the end of D1 [#97; bolded these in a previous post]
- SB backs up BT [And admittedly me] in 133

And then there's things like #128 where as a 'watcher' you let Dan get away with fakeclaiming watcher without batting an eyelid. And how you claimed last. And how your role has conveniently not seen a single thing. And how SB in 133 specifically addressed you when talking about the possibility of a scum strongman kill.

I've also been in the forefront for most of the game. Scum usually lurks D1 in MotK; and you did just that BT.

[Raikaria]

So don't try to write off my case as simply rolespec. Yes; my case on you is 'explainable oddities' but when do 'explainable oddities' cross the line into being 'more than a co-incidence' when added together?

[Raikaria]

A pretty interesting line - what were these reasons?

Looking at your 'case' on me again; which is basically saying 'SB and Rai were bussing and Rai is showing apathy and switching between wagons when he's made it clear the situation means one or the other is scum' this is a question I actually feel like answering because this clears up an earlier statement of mine which the meaning of isn't clear.

I'd have vanilla'ed Dan after D1; if I had such a role; as a soft-cop on him due to his incredibly poor D1. He was a good target to Vanilla IMO; from a town perspective. Also as revenge for my opinion about his play the last few games. [Which is really; really poor imo and even bordered on outright anti-town on one particular game].

[Raikaria]

Like I was hopping between Doritaki and SB D2 because Raitaki and SB's interactions made it pretty clear one of them was scum. Especially when Dan claim vanilla'ed and SB's reaction to it.

And D3; well I'm not scum... Dan is clear... IMO Doritaki was cleared because of D2's flip... so that means one of you and Sky were scum 100%. So with a mislynch; I honestly didn't mind which of the two got lynched first.

And now it's just you. And you are scum. Process of elimination.

[BT]

As well as the rolespec about how it is incredibly unlikly that you are a legitimate Watcher there is:

What, do I need to go over the night actions a third time? It was incredibly plausible if anything.

- SB tried rather hard to lynch me during D1 for a while; and cast doubt on my claim during D2. Why would my scumbuddy do that?

I don't know, but there's certainly nothing stopping him? You were at each others throats and maintaining some level of hostility probably felt needed. I can say that it's a lot easier to call out a buddy on, say, a claim, because you're biased - it could look scummy to you and completely normal to a townie. This isn't anything special.

- It makes no sense at all for me to fakeclaim roleblocker as scum; since there already was a jailer flipped. In addittion; a strongman existing makes perfect sense if there is a jailer and a roleblocker on town.

Conveniently ignoring my call that strongman on N3 is nonsensical, I see. Depending on your real role, maybe it DID make sense. As it stands, it's an open question.

- I tried to lynch SB Day 1; and during Day 2 was saying 'We either lynch Dorian or SB' most of the day. So unless SB and me were bussing hard the entire game...

Cont. from the last one, you guys being aggro against each other but not ACTUALLY lynching each other for D2 is suspect on its own.

- I reacted to Dorian's threat to selfhammer. Why would I do that if I was scum? I'd have left him lynch himself.

Scum do pro-town things on many an occasion. This isn't an excuse - it really does happen a lot. Plus the lynch wasn't likely to change at the time anyway.

And then there's things like #128 where as a 'watcher' you let Dan get away with fakeclaiming watcher without batting an eyelid. And how you claimed last. And how your role has conveniently not seen a single thing. And how SB in 133 specifically addressed you when talking about the possibility of a scum strongman kill.

Already addressed all of this. You're not responding to my rebuttals at all. Instead you're just keeping on trucking on to keep the case alive.

I've also been in the forefront for most of the game. Scum usually lurks D1 in MotK; and you did just that BT.

I swear to god it's in my meta by now.

[BT]

So don't try to write off my case as simply rolespec. Yes; my case on you is 'explainable oddities' but when do 'explainable oddities' cross the line into being 'more than a co-incidence' when added together?

Compare to your explainable oddities (which I have already explained) to the arguments I've flooded the last few pages with. If those things add up to something coherent, I've already caught the scumteams for the next 3 games.

I'd have vanilla'ed Dan after D1; if I had such a role; as a soft-cop on him due to his incredibly poor D1. He was a good target to Vanilla IMO; from a town perspective. Also as revenge for my opinion about his play the last few games. [Which is really; really poor imo and even bordered on outright anti-town on one particular game].

I'm going to call you out for this a SECOND time: how, exactly, is it a soft-cop? I'm also gonna fact-check your D1 to see if you actually thought Dan was poor - multiple people found his post helpful.

[BT]

I... am... awaaaake!

And it seems everything with my unvote just before sleep last night went to plan. All of the two and a half full-on lurkers have added content and thrown their pennies into the pile.

It appears this game it's a universal issue that we cannot make solid scumreads. The fact that NNR is currently at L-1 for his apathy and what amounts to active lurking shows this. [By the way guys; NNR is L-1] Arguably posting yet doing nothing is worst than not posting at all.

As much as it irks me to agree with Dan; I cannot help but sympathise with his inability to find a solid scumread; because aside from some things I dislike about SB's earlygame I don't really have a scumread either; and the SB thing is heavily mitigated by the fact usually whoever I get into a slapfight with D1 ends up being Town v Town. So I'm a little cautious.

I mean; everyone other than NNR and SB are giving off varying levels of town vibes; and my gut is telling me 'Don't lynch SB you've done this situation D1 like 6 times before and each time it's ended badly'. This is the problem I guess when the primary content is... well... yourself.

I'm yet to see anyone have qualms about lynching NNR anyway. So I'm just gonna drop the hammer. Honestly at this point I think flips are the most useful thing we can have to figuring this one out, and he has a good chance of being scum anyway IMO.

##Vote: NNR

Fact-check: done.

[Raikaria]

Dan as bad and lurking for most of Day 1; and while I agreed with the majority of his first content post he was still a good vanillaing target IMO.

I presume a vanillaiser; if it was town; would fail if used on scum. I've seen town vanillerisers before; and their role fails if they hit scum; making them a 'soft cop'. It's like masons. They can only convert townies to masons. They fail [or die] if they hit scum.

[BT]

Where have you seen them? Now I'm more curious than anything else. It could just be my bad memory, but I don't remember cop-vanillizers on MotK. I want to say "so that's what brought forth SB's claim", which I guess would be true anyway.

[Raikaria]

As for why I wouldn't target SB if I was in the position where I was a vanillaiser; I would rather use such a role on someone who is less likly to be attracting attention from other roles.

Honestly; however. You're nitpicking at a tiny thing that was me theorising about a hypothetical situation. If I was a Town Vanillaiser. I'm not. In fact; it's completely irrelevant that you are questioning me on 'If I was a Town Vanillariser I would do x' if you are attempting to prove I am scum.

If I was scum; I certainly would not have targeted ActionDan with the vanilla-maker. I'd have targeted someone like... well... you; since you often put in a good performance; are commonly protected and are dangerous with a power role.

But I'm not scum. And you're not town. So these hypothetical situations don't even matter.

Where have you seen them? Now I'm more curious than anything else. It could just be my bad memory, but I don't remember cop-vanillizers on MotK. I want to say "so that's what brought forth SB's claim", which I guess would be true anyway.

Not MotK. Chatroom mafia games with a role called 'Mimic'. If the Mimic hits a townie they steal the townie's role and make the Townie a Vanilla. If they hit a scum they become Vanilla. It's a different version of a Vanilleriser.

In fact I'll even link the role:
https://epicmafia.com/role/1024

So when I heard 'Vanillariser' I thought of this role.

But again; where I've seen these roles is irrelevant.

[Raikaria]

So when I heard 'Vanillariser' I thought of this role.

*Minus the role copying aspect.

[BigBangMeteor]

I wanted to speak to Mitsuki before doing anything but meh.

Awarding a 24 hour extension. However, if no lynch is reached by the end of those 24 hours, the game will end in universal loss.

[Mitsuki]

Link to the new countown

Sorry, but enough time has been granted to make a decision, and an uneficient usage of such time is no excuse to extend it much longer.

[ActionDan]

sure...

more posts.  always more posts

[Raikaria]

Dan you have 4 hours 20 minutes.

I'd rather us two not lose a won game. Even if BT also loses.

[ActionDan]

I won't be back until after deadline.

And I'm still 50-50 after a read through.

Everything I said before holds true now and it's very difficult for me to figure out who is scum.

##Vote: BT

Sorry.  I edge this way.  BT I think you played better and showed clearer thoughts than Raikaria and I think it's possible Raikaria could have bussed SB and protected him a bit afterwords, + that claim that he could be a cop vanillizer.. but I think you also protected him as well and I still don't like your D2, I think Vhaltz wasn't likely to protect you and it's possible you claimed that to make it seem as if Raitaki/Dorian could have been free to kill that night.  A stretch argument to assign motivation to your claim.  But.  ya. 

It's entirely possible I made the wrong choice.  I apologize if I have done so.

[BT]

I'll wait for the update, I think. GG for now.

[Raikaria]

Indeed. While me and BT know the result; I don't know how many other people do. [Graveyard? People not involved but watching like maybe Serela and Shadoweh?]

So the suspense isn't killing ME; but it's killing everyone else in the room.

[ActionDan]

Well before the flip I wanted to say that that vote over the course of 2 hours flipped no less than 5 times.

[SB]

FUCK.

[ActionDan]

Damn.  that was a troll post.

[NekoNekoRex]

Indeed. While me and BT know the result; I don't know how many other people do. [Graveyard? People not involved but watching like maybe Serela and Shadoweh?]

So the suspense isn't killing ME; but it's killing everyone else in the room.

(We got spoiled on the results, it was obvious by D3)

[ActionDan]

(We got spoiled on the results, it was obvious by D3)

T_T.  I really don't think so...

[SB]

1-shot roleblocker and jailer and in an 8p game yo

[ActionDan]

*narrows eyes*