SCP Containment Breach Mafia - Game Over

[BT]

I'll try being around in 8 hours (7 AM for me) for efficiency's sake.

[BigBangMeteor]

A little more than 23 hours left in the phase. You guys know the votals.

[ActionDan]

The most gut wrenching thing in the world is watching anything based on a John le Carre novel.

[BT]

 :wat:

[ActionDan]

meh I'll be honest, I've been trying to connect with a few people by playing LoL with them because I'm lonely.  So that is sucking up my time. 

[BT]

To whose advantage do you think this is going? Just saying what you think after 8+ pages would probably be something.

[ActionDan]

I keep coming back to the point that Vhaltz was likely to Roleblock Raitaki N1.

that's the strongest thing.

[ActionDan]

though I don't know why you'd claim otherwise SO.  ya know

[BT]

I figured there wasn't one "likeliest" target, but it's not like I thought about it too long, since, you know. "Well, he suspected me and I could have died, that makes sense." It probably isn't a detail you should start slugging on.

[Raikaria]

Still alive. Still not really got much to say since I laid out my case.

[Mitsuki]

You have 12 hours left in this phase.

[BT]

Considering we've spent 24+ hours doing nothing and I'm busy today, could we get an extension? Special LYLO privileges?

[Raikaria]

Considering we've spent 24+ hours doing nothing and I'm busy today, could we get an extension? Special LYLO privileges?

It's not like you can kill during Night 4 anyway BT. You can only kill on odd days.

[BT]

What? Town can't win a tie. Are you so intent on acting that you're forgetting the obvious?

[ActionDan]

He means technically we can nl and get 3 more days.  Which I might do because sorry busy times working plus preparing to go to Europe on Friday to Birmingham Cardiff London and Paris

[BT]

Ohhhh. We can do that.

[BT]

I'm going to London in a week too, maybe we can just do this thing IRL.

[ActionDan]

Woah really. Well technically I visit France for the first week so Aug 8th I'd come into Britain through Calais to dover

[BT]

Well I'm heading back on August 9th so it's possible. Technically. Let's not stall this game that long, though. :V

[ActionDan]

Raikaria in your post #199 you have no comments about the status of Raitaki/Dorian's alignment.  Why is that when it seems you were ok with citing me as a possibility (however small).  Did you think it obvious that they were town and thus needed no more thought given to them?

BT.  At the point where everyone massclaimed, we had an insomniac maker, 1-shot roleblocker, vanillizer/cop, jailer, hydra, vanilla + you.   Did you not suspect that along with your role which is certainly considerable, that one of the claimed power roles was lying? Walk me through your thoughts during that time.

[ActionDan]

Question. 

these quotes are taken from post #199 and post #204.

In fact; Dan's initial claim makes me suspicious of BT's claim more than Sky's claim; this is the primary reason I think we should lynch BT first.

#Vote: BT

Because Dan claimed he used to be a watcher; and that he self-watched.

Dan; could you watch people who were not you?

The discrepancy is due to 'I forgot - derp' but the word "initial" appears suggesting that you were cognizant of a further claim by me, one that would have negated this 'primary reason' to vote BT.  Do you remember what you were thinking exactly Raikaria?

[Raikaria]

Question. 

these quotes are taken from post #199 and post #204.

The discrepancy is due to 'I forgot - derp' but the word "initial" appears suggesting that you were cognizant of a further claim by me, one that would have negated this 'primary reason' to vote BT.  Do you remember what you were thinking exactly Raikaria?

It's called Raikaria is derping and herping and forgot Dan threw his watcher claim away for Caffinator.

[Raikaria]

I think in the first post I remembered you claimed something else. In the second I forgot you changed your claim or something.

I don't know I'm an idiot.

But that first quoted post I couldn't recall exactly what it was about the watcher claim that irked me about BT which is why I never quantified it. Then when I re-read I remembered what it was about BT's reaction to your initial claim that irked me and why it cast doubt on BT's role during D4.

[ActionDan]

got it

[BT]

BT.  At the point where everyone massclaimed, we had an insomniac maker, 1-shot roleblocker, vanillizer/cop, jailer, hydra, vanilla + you.   Did you not suspect that along with your role which is certainly considerable, that one of the claimed power roles was lying? Walk me through your thoughts during that time.

I don't think I gave it too much thought. Yeah, I'm sure I did note that there was a lot of power in the game, but I generally play games with the mindset of not ruling anything out. If town's loaded, maybe it's just a role-heavy game, etc. Like, it's not that I actively ignored the detail, it just never occurred to me to find it important. It might have also had something to do with theoretical jailor + vanillizer + roleblocker disrupting a lot of town power, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I don't remember suspecting people because "there are too many roles", no.

But that first quoted post I couldn't recall exactly what it was about the watcher claim that irked me about BT which is why I never quantified it. Then when I re-read I remembered what it was about BT's reaction to your initial claim that irked me and why it cast doubt on BT's role during D4.

Here I'm gonna note that it's a bad idea to base votes off of vague feelings like "he buddied SB" and "he reacted badly" especially if you don't have a good grasp of what you're talking about. Something something scum apathy.

[BT]

I remember something off about that convo, so I went back to it.

Oh yeah; I forgot that; my bad.

We tell Raikaria he's mistaking Dan's fake claim for his real one and he just admits he was at fault. Today "[lack of] reaction to false claim" is one of his only things he's basing his case off of. What happened between then and now?

[BT]

Lemme clarify: Raikaria's case one me is still really bad, and was always really bad. It started off mentioning a few of my points as "SB buddying" which plain wasn't true, and the point about Dan's watcher claim, which is just a big attention to detail failure. It's not like the caffienator claim was transparent and it's not like Raikaria didn't voice his suspicions that a caffienator exists after Vhaltz's death, no, nothing like that at all. >_> But when Raikaria needs to set up a more serious case on me because it's 1v1, he goes back to the watcher claim and DOES push it through. This is new, because in what I quoted above, he just ended up dropping it because "oops I missed the real claim". If he suspected my reaction to the fake claim, how does that make a difference? Raikaria failed to see anything from his case through on D3. My attempts at talking to him about the case were fruitless. Hindsight is 20/20.

[Raikaria]

I suspected something with your role because of Dan's claim when the issue came up where it was either you or Sky_Paladin as scum; but I wasn't sure exactly what it was at the time.

More time to read and more time to think made me realise what irked me.

And you're really calling all the points I made about your role being not feasable a 'bad' case?

And yes; my case might be bad. You're far more experienced at mafia than I am; especially beyond Day 1. But 'talking me down' isn't going to work when it is 100% certain from my PoV that you are scum; just like it was 100% from my PoV D3 that either you or Sky_Paladin were scum; so I threw out ideas on both of you to see how the others reacted to them. Ultimately I voted and hammered Sky because he tried to lynch Dan. It honestly dosen't matter if my case is 'bad'; and I don't think it is.

What matters is the points I've raised in the case; and what Dan sees when re-reading. It's Dan I've got to convince. Not you. Why do I need to convince you that you are scum when you already know that? It's a lesson in futility.

[Raikaria]

But yeah; I'm the guy who throws out loads of little things and lets other people build on them. I'm lay foundations for cases that others build off; I raise questions about things so people get more information. I'm a mafia player who gathers information for the town. I don't sort it; I let people better at that than me do that.

I'm not the good at actually making an entire case by myself.

And since I'm in that situation; it's showing.

[ActionDan]

game is hard.

and it's harder my browser doesn't allow me to see any double spaces so everything looks like

blahblahblah
blhalblahlla
akgjkajekgjarg

instead of:

Para#1

Para#2

Para#3.


Anyway.  Game is hard.  Either one of you could easily be scum.  And by that I mean you've both played super well regardless because you both look towny in many ways.  many many ways.

So my thoughts.  BT's play is quite organized and genuine sounding.  Take that to mean his opinions were on point throughout the game.  It is possible that his posts were carefully constructed saying only as much as he needed to in order to get by.  I'd say Raikaria does not have that same distinction.  Lots of little mind slips here and there, some of the specific ones have been illustrated pretty well by now.  However taken separately and together each little discrepancy is not damning by any means and the sum total of errors committed could have been made by a townie. 


Rolewise, I find myself struggling to place the power of HYDRA into the setup and it matters because either the practical value of the setup is Jailer/1-shot rber + basically same power as a fruit vendor role (counters vanillizer tho somewhat) vs. vanillizer / (probable full strongman) OR Jailer/ Watcher-Voyeur + me vs. vanillizer / something equivalent to strongman probably  with the first setup being weaker for town than the 2nd and I find the 2nd to be more in line with balance with treating the HYDRA as vanilla. 


Regarding role usage:  Not much to say here for Raikaria.  claim/actions/time of claim/ w/e else are just fine.  As for BT I am firstly mitigating the not ccing my watcher claim because he didn't have to claim watcher/voyeur anyway or anything at all.  The specific claim wasn't going to help him tremendously as scum and it's value is only so much as it's a power role over a vanilla claim if there's any advantage to people believing that for some reason.  I however still do not like that total power from roles weren't taken into consideration D2 by SB.  I'm not sure Vhaltz would have jailed BT either with him being quite adamant about Raitaki/Dorian being scum.


Agendas:  I think D2 BT lacked much courage in voting, in part due to what Dorian called fence-sitting which while the posts themselves ring true, could belie a scum not wanting to bus his partner immediately.  Raikaria comes out a little better in this regard D2 and D3 because the flow of votes are a little more gutsy and less calculated. 


Considering the above I might have voted Raikaria based around BT's play overall trumping Raikaria's in my opinion.  However I like Raikaria's overall tone just as much as BT's in BT's mostly honest sounding posts.  It's a little different from being 'honest'.  They are more open to unfettered thoughts, sometimes crappy ones though as is apparent in Raikaria's first D1 case.

This decision is hard and I'm not yet ready to make it.