NSP Mafia - Game Over

[DNAbc]

shadoweh, lazy reason =/= wrong reason. because a conclusion is obvious it usually means its right, or you can educate me in logic 101.

also shadoweh are you really trying to play here, BBM doesnt post alot as maf, he lurks around and spits a few core posts while responding to major arguments/rebuttals against him to keep things going and seem town. or at least thats how i remember it, correct me if i am wrong

nnr's definition of how ''playstyle'' isn't an argument is dumb considering we are scumhunting here. i think we can all agree on the definition for ''scummy'' is ''actions/intents that point to the player inclining to being scum'' and your problem is essentially i am doing ''scummy things'' according to your definition so you treat me as scum.

tldr, its a playstyle argument that is biased and from NNR's subjective view, of which i already pointed out three times already how absolutely trash it is when you don't even listen to me saying your biased definition doesnt apply to me. thats what i do, suck it or stick with your useless stance, i persume you are gluing with the latter

the nnr i played mafia with isn't so ridiculously dumb that he bites on his own defs consecutively post after post. if you are looking for someone whos so blatantly and horribly off the mark D1 look at NNR. i seriously  couldn't find a better scumread at this point other than this moron who would lurk for hours, spout some incoherent BS and keeps lurking afterwards. his entire impression can only be concluded as that he never spent time actually digesting my stuff

i still don't understand anything about the zak wagon, because admittedly he did nothing really notable throughout the whole game and its just d1. its perfectly reasonable to let him slide just because of so because that would equate to taking potshots at random people. kinda like what nnr, shadoweh and some other people are trying to do to me. do you guys understand that actual logic doesnt take place during d1? trying to justify your completely emo (read: emotional) response by overexaggerating quotes and raising a field of strawmen all over the place is silly. cut that out

[Vhaltz]

Hey boys and girls, this ninja science votecount's gonna rock your world

Zakeri (1): BBM
Candeloro (1): Raikaria
NekoNekoRex (1): DNA
Skypal (1): Junko
BBM (1): Zakeri
DNA (3): Skypal, NNR, Shadoweh
Raikaria (1): SB

Voteless scrubs: Poly

With 10 alive, 6 votes are required for hammer.

[Sky_Paladin]

Zak, "I still want to lynch Junko, but not for anything dealing with Scumminess or whether a post restriction in this game could be legit or not."
Why do you want to lynch Junko?  You said reasons that you don't want to do it.  What reason do you have for it? 

Zak
BBM:

Then, "why X not Y" is a perfectly logical reason for a scumread because when there are multiple people doing Action A but someone votes one person for it without mentioning the other, at all, that person is arbitrarily pushing one person over the other for no real reason, which is generally because they're scum BSing something.

Zak:

This is false. a natural part of scumhunting is picking out and singling people for actions they've done, and a natural part of human psyche is to pick up on the first instance of something they notice and call out against it- especially since Mafia is a game where we're racing for information. I already said his reason for picking me out was because He noticed I did it but didn't notice others who also did it - are you actively denying this could happen?

To me this is the crux of it because I agree with BBM. 
I also agree with Zak that people pick up the first thing they notice and run with it, which is why I voted for DNA over Zak, because I noticed DNA first and picked up Zak while composing the first post. 
Where I get confused is here:
"I already said his reason for picking me out was because He noticed I did it but didn't notice others who also did it - are you actively denying this could happen?"

Can you put in names because I don't know who you're referring to and can't evaluate it. 

I think the harm comes from the fact that it wastes brain power and is not scumhunting - it's the same set of problems as trying to rolegame the setup, except instead of getting alignment info, we're just getting the thoughts of a person posting on day one anyway.

Nailed it.  Especially because if Pokemon wanted to be understood they would do a better job of it.  For example, they quoted my entire wall and voted me without indicating why.  There's no way to agree/disagree so it's useless.  Pokemon is not really making an effort to be understood.  I won't go so far as 'deliberately vague and unhelpful' just yet but I'm not far off. 

Cut:  That vote tally, ugh. 

I agree with SB that Raikaria is doing nothing; his vote on Candlebro is kind of useless since Candle is 99% gonna be forcereplaced. 
Junko's vote is useless and didn't explain why they're voting in the slightest. 
BBM and Zak are countervoting.  Of the two I'm favoring a vote on Zak over BBM. 
On DNA's wagon, I think Shadoweh's vote is insubstantial, her reasoning is 'impending meltdown'.  DNA hasn't done a whole lot to actually discourage my vote though and hasn't responded really to my case. 

I'm around til phase end.  Posting now and looking forward to Zak's responses. 

[SB]

Wrt DNA: Trying to decipher what Junko was saying doesn't stop us from scumhunting as well, does it? It just feels like it because this has been a really slow day. Zak and BBM feel like they're clashing in game theory rather than in who the scum is. They should vote real scum, like Sky Paladin!

I didn't really notice it before but his DNA case seems hypocritical (as well as bad, for reasons I stated earlier) considering that Sky's only contributions at that point were related to the post restriction too. In his *updated* case he basically says he's scum because he might be crumbing something which COULD BE DISTRACTING but it only is because you're making it so? I also find it strange how he's so interested in DNA lacking in opinions when roughly half the game are in the same position. The only difference is that he's stating it outright, which isn't scummy as of itself.

Not satisfied with Shadoweh atm as her only opinion is that DNA is scum based on the freak-out, and she doesn't even examine why it's scummy.

I can barely understand the last half of DNA's NNR case, can you explain it better?

##Unvote
##Vote: Sky Paladin

I'm probably gonna be here to change my vote later but I'd rather not lynch DNA because I don't feel like anything he's done has been actually scummy?

Cut by a Sky post that feels like it has more commentary than reads in it. There's a lot addressing Zak's content but I can barely make out what Sky thinks of him and him picking a side at the end just feels kind of arbitrary?

[Raikaria]

Wrt DNA: Trying to decipher what Junko was saying doesn't stop us from scumhunting as well, does it? It just feels like it because this has been a really slow day. Zak and BBM feel like they're clashing in game theory rather than in who the scum is. They should vote real scum, like Sky Paladin!

I didn't really notice it before but his DNA case seems hypocritical (as well as bad, for reasons I stated earlier) considering that Sky's only contributions at that point were related to the post restriction too. In his *updated* case he basically says he's scum because he might be crumbing something which COULD BE DISTRACTING but it only is because you're making it so? I also find it strange how he's so interested in DNA lacking in opinions when roughly half the game are in the same position. The only difference is that he's stating it outright, which isn't scummy as of itself.

Not satisfied with Shadoweh atm as her only opinion is that DNA is scum based on the freak-out, and she doesn't even examine why it's scummy.

I can barely understand the last half of DNA's NNR case, can you explain it better?

##Unvote
##Vote: Sky Paladin

I'm probably gonna be here to change my vote later but I'd rather not lynch DNA because I don't feel like anything he's done has been actually scummy?

Cut by a Sky post that feels like it has more commentary than reads in it. There's a lot addressing Zak's content but I can barely make out what Sky thinks of him and him picking a side at the end just feels kind of arbitrary?

Wait a second.

So I asume the rest of your post; including the Sky vote; was before you got cut by him.

Even then; taking into account what you say about Sky's most recent post; I don't see a legitimate reason at all to vote Sky. Discounting the part written after you noticed you ere cut by Sky; you didn't even mention him. Which makes the Sky vote even stranger. [If you changed your mind and decided to vote Sky after his post that cut you; surely your unvote and vote would be after you got cut?]

#Unvote
#Vote: SB

I think your vote is unjustified and bad, especially when the formatting suggests it came from left field.

[Shadoweh]

I'm back for a short short minute! The countdown says there's 2 hours left. The votecount has a certain why did I bother quality to it. :| DNA's defense looks more like ad-hominem attacks about how NNR is stupid and doesn't know how to play mafia, also NNR is scum because only scum would be that dumb (two viewpoints that don't match up). I'm not moving my vote and I won't be back before deadline so at least three other people need to stop messing around and vote together.

[BigBangMeteor]

meh people are probably right that this comes down to a theory thing between Zak and I and it doesn't seem like he's going to be lynched anyways.

##Unvote

DNA's posts have... an unusual amount of vitriol in them but I don't ever remember him doing it as scum (though I haven't followed most of the recent games other than SCP) so I feel like he's just angry town atm. Also he's not actually defending himself from Skypal really; which I feel is something town are more likely to do. His meta on me is wrong in a lot of places but idk why he'd go to so much effort over a townread if he's scum. It's not like I'm about to get lynched that he's going to get towncred by white-knighting me.

I agree with Raikaria that SB needs to expand on the Skypal vote because I don't think he'd said anything about Skypal before, and while I do agree with that assessment of Skypal's last post, the vote came before the post. Idk if I want to lynch SB off that one post though- Raikaria, what are your thoughts on DNA and Skypal?

##Vote: Skypal

I think this is better than DNA. I don't feel like he's really going to a lot of effort on anybody other than DNA. While the stuff about not voting Shadoweh is true, NNR pointed it out way earlier, and it's kind of hypocritical that he's wasting so much space about throwaway one-liners by DNA about him complaining about the heat while calling DNA scummy for talking about Junko's posts. I know that he's claiming that the heat stuff is another example of DNA fluff but to me it looks like Skypal fluff. Also he says that there's no reason for non-town-aligned people to crumb. I don't agree with that but if that's the case why is he voting DNA?

He talks a lot about me vs Zak but then he just kind of plops down an arbitrary judgement in my favour which I don't get. The comments at the bottom of his last post are just that, comments. Don't get a sense of priority in suspicion from any of them, which would be needed because otherwise he's saying that other than DNA, Zak, Raikaria, Shadoweh, and Junko are scummy, which is like half the game.

[BigBangMeteor]

I'll vote DNA if I have to to secure a lynch but I'd prefer Skypal atm. Also DNA and Skypal should claim.

[Raikaria]

Wait what there's 2 hours?

I'm not thrilled about either lynch honestly. If I had to pick one I guess it would be DNA; if only because it should give us more information about other people based on his flip from interactions.

[Vhaltz]

No Reason Votecount, oooooooooooh no reason votecount.

Candeloro (1): Raikaria
NekoNekoRex (1): DNA
Skypal (3): Junko, SB, BBM
BBM (1): Zakeri
DNA (3): Skypal, NNR, Shadoweh
SB (1): Raikaria

Voteless scrubs: Poly

With 10 alive, 6 votes are required for hammer. There's 1 hour and 12 minutes left in the phase.

[BigBangMeteor]

In the year 2014 we lynch people for being scummy, not for the information they give upon flipping. Why are you not enthusiastic about either lynch? Can't really remember you saying anything about either of them.

[SB]

The first part of the post on Sky was saying he was scummy because his case was completely hypocritical and it felt like he'd focuses on one person who's guilty of a lack of reads when he'd hardly even glanced at other people who were guilty of the same thing.

I can feel the no lynch coming.

[Vhaltz]

Bard replaces Candeloro/Poly, effective immediately.

[Sky_Paladin]

SB

I didn't really notice it before but his DNA case seems hypocritical (as well as bad, for reasons I stated earlier) considering that Sky's only contributions at that point were related to the post restriction too.

This is untrue.  The case was additionally supported by DNA's weird voting early in the game and empty unvote.  I then further supported it with my second wall when I noticed he had strange comments in his posts as well as continually stating he wanted to be neutral.  I think it's scummy so I kept my vote there.  Most of the players in the game have some kind of opinion, DNA is the only one who hasn't (except for Poly who is afk presumably). 

Seeing as the core concept of your case is actually incorrect, I'll assume you'll cancel your vote since it's bad. 

BBM
I'm not going to claim because:
1 - Neither of us are now likely to be lynched, and that was terribly scummy for you to try to get multiple claims in such a way. 
2 - You are insinuiating that the lynch must be between DNA and Sky_Paladin and that is a carbon copy of Raikaria's scumplay last game.
3 -
There's a lot wrong in BBM's post but I don't have time to cover it all so here's the highlights;

he's not actually defending himself from Skypal really; which I feel is something town are more likely to do

Since when does a town player not defend themselves?  That's backwards. 

throwaway one-liners by DNA about him complaining about the heat while calling DNA scummy for talking about Junko's posts.

Misrep.  I did state originally that DNA was scummy for it.  I then later corrected it and said that this point was invalid.  However other points still stand including his initial voteswitching on page 1 that you queried. 

I know that he's claiming that the heat stuff is another example of DNA fluff but to me it looks like Skypal fluff

I spent an hour combing through his posts trying to make a case.  I didn't do it to everybody yet because I just didn't have enough time.  I saw a lot of comments about heat and planet related stuff.  DNA didn't respond to that point.  I thought it was odd.  So I mentioned it.  The fact is he said those things, I didn't just make them up. 

He talks a lot about me vs Zak but then he just kind of plops down an arbitrary judgement in my favour which I don't get.

My first wall post I picked apart Zak and then DNA, I went after DNA because I thought he was more likely to be scum.  I've really only had time to look at DNA, Zak, and yourself. 
If I had to pick between the two of you, I'd have picked Zak, but the post I'm responding to really makes me change my mind. 

DNA, Zak, Raikaria, Shadoweh, and Junko are scummy, which is like half the game.

I'm trying to evaluate votes that are bad because bad votes are scummy votes.  EG up until now Raikaria had a bad vote.  Now he has a good vote (a vote that is justified in some way that I can understand) so I'd remove him from that list. 

[Sky_Paladin]

BBM

But do you think that either DNA or I are scum?

So right now I'm at like... Zak > Raikaria > Sky?

It seems like you were happy to lynch a Zak until, as you said just a moment ago, it doesn't seem like Zak is going to be lynched. 

However, your priority list had Raikaria as next, but you jumped over him based on (presumably) his most recent post.  Was his post so good that he got cleared in your eyes?  (To be fair, it did clear him in mine). 

I feel like BBM's vote on me is an opportunity vote sparked by SB, and that this is a wagon hop vote.  I feel that this is possibly indicative of a BBM/DNA scum pair. 

In the year 2014 we lynch people for being scummy, not for the information they give upon flipping.

I'm pretty sure I've seen people lynched here for the information they give upon flipping.  At this point I think a flip of BBM is starting to look more appealing than a DNA flip though, with less than an hour to go, I can't see any of them happening. 

[SB]

Um, nope. It's true that your only contributions before the DNA vote were based around Junko's PR (and an RVS vote but yeah.) I've explained why what DNA has been doing hasn't been scummy too, so.

I don't really like your aggression wrt me dropping my vote on you either. It just makes me more confident in it.

Wrt Town not defending themselves: scum's objective is to avoid the lynch. Not defending yourself is pretty much counter-intuitive to this.

Really Sky's BBM suspicion feels like it's super reactionary rather than saying why he's scum.

bard pls we need your vote probably

[Vhaltz]

32 minutes left, votecount remains unchanged.

[Sky_Paladin]

To be clear, I don't think SB is scummy for his case, even though I think his case is poor. 

I do think BBM is scummy because he jumped on it in the way that he did and for the things that he said just now and earlier in the phase. 

It doesn't make sense for scum!BBM to try to swing the lynch away from DNA unless DNA is his buddy.  Or because he knows DNA was town and wants to get town cred for saving him or something I don't know. 

cut

It's true that your only contributions before the DNA vote were based around Junko's PR (and an RVS vote but yeah.)

The DNA vote post was my third post of the game, and my second post was the vote before it where I got interrupted, yo. 

Wrt Town not defending themselves: scum's objective is to avoid the lynch. Not defending yourself is pretty much counter-intuitive to this.

Town also want to avoid a lynch.

DNA specifically didn't defend himself from me.  We had that whole Why X, why not Y thing already.  DNA did defend himself from NNR and Shadoweh but he ignored me for some reason.

Really Sky's BBM suspicion feels like it's super reactionary rather than saying why he's scum.

It'd make more sense to be reactionary to you since you made the initial case. 

I think he's scum because of the run in with DNA on page 1, asking specifically hey do you think DNA or I are scum, and then the stuff in the other post where he voted me. 

But I can't get six votes on BBM with 30 minutes left and if it's a BBM DNA scumpair well DNA is already at 3.  If DNA flips town then sigh bakc to drawing board. 

Goodnight.

[Raikaria]

In the year 2014 we lynch people for being scummy, not for the information they give upon flipping. Why are you not enthusiastic about either lynch? Can't really remember you saying anything about either of them.

Your earlier statement answers your previous one.

I don't have a particular feeling that either of you are particually likly to be scum. I am not confident in lynching either of you.

But the fact is odds are with this time left one of you is getting lynched; and I can't see anything to make a viable counter-wagon off. And even then; it would need 6 people to win. In less than thirty minutes.

[SB]

I REDISCOVERED THE QUICK REPLY FUNCTION

I know you didn't have many posts, but it was still hypocritical.

Scum care more about avoiding the lynch than town since town are also spending time trying to find the scumteam. And it's possible that DNA just missed what you said or didn't read it or something? iirc Shadoweh said she hadn't so it's not impossible!

And it'd make sense to react to BBM more because there'd actually be the threat of a lynch wagon then.

We're probably not getting one though because we have 15 minutes left!

[SB]

Rai: if you don't have a read on either of them then what do you make of the recent BBM/Sky posts?

[DNAbc]

guys I am up and I read everything

firstly let me get this straight, lynch not on me > lynch on me as usual

##Unvote
##Vote: Skypal

I am the town weak visitor, I essentially visit people each night, if their alignment is scum or i fail my investigation, i die.
 
i will visit nnr tonight

[DNAbc]

tbh maybe not i wont visit him but still let me explain why i am voting skypal

[Raikaria]

I mean, what's worse; me helping with consolidation; which we may not even be able to reach in the time remaining; or we no lynch?

I don't like this situation. It's a pretty bad one. And this day has been rather bad for finding scum as well between Poly being AFK the entire day and general lack of content from many players; admittedly myself included.

I just feel slightly less confident about DNA at this juncture than Sky Paladin. Sky's posts seem more town than DNA.

I mean; there's people I'd want to lynch over DNA [Poly/Bard slot; SB] but I guess I gotta go with my gut out of the two viable wagons at this point.

#Vote: DNA

This is like; 90% gut after reading their posts again. It's not so much I dislike DNA's posts; moreso I like Sky's.

===

Cut by claim.

DNA I don't really think you need to explain the fact you are voting your counterwagon.

[Raikaria]

Also not gonna be here right on the nose of the deadline. Sorry guys.

[Vhaltz]

10 minutes left

Both DNA and Skypal are at L-2.

[Raikaria]

Also I forgot to mention I don't think highly of SB in terms of liklihood to be town and SB is wanting Sky lynched and not DNA.

So; yeah; I'd rather vote against what my strongest scumread right now wants.

[SB]

weak makes sense considering its probably 8/2 or something, need a way to knock off the extra digit.

Is your Bardslot suspicion based solely on inactivity?

[DNAbc]

bascially, sky paladin did loads of weird thing which i found to be all over the place. tho to be fair, i personally dont find that absolutely damning, and to give credit wheres due i still believe nnr is scummier but time constrains is a bitch. that and i overslept, sorry guys.

i wont use the night action tonight.that said i should have cared more about my image d1 because this is the first time drawing an actual cop role from me and it seems i am a baddie at keeping a low profile. i was shooting for somewhere between, like super-unlikely-to-be-doctored-hence-scum-target and super-towny, i screwed up.

[SB]

no DNA you should definitely act tonight