Should Touhou have a tutorial?

[HistoryoftheMoon]

I know that I would've liked one when I was first starting out, but having a tutorial in every game fully explaining the mechanics would probably obnoxious to make. What do you think?

[Drake]

They come with manuals in HTML files until 12.5, they're just obviously in Japanese. Since 12.5 the manuals are just available in-game.

[shockdude]

Tutorials in shmups are generally uncommon for some reason. Crimzon Clover is a notable exception, with a skippable tutorial that plays before every game.
An in-game Touhou tutorial would be useful, and doesn't even have to be complicated. You know the demo replays that play when you leave the game at the main menu? Just add a tutorial replay with text overlays explaining the controls and (new) mechanics.

[Helepolis]

Like Drake mentioned, manuals are there for each Touhou game which is in my opinion sufficient.

[Zelinko]

IMO You could get something similar if the Attract Mode demo clip does something to show it off.

For example: Ten Destires Demo collecting some white spirits and then popping off TRANCE MODE while doing the rest of the demo. It'd be normal gameplay but showing off the gimmick.

It's less about being an explicit demo but something you can figure out by watching the demo while watching. I mean the SA demo looks to do this with the entire Reception Bar meter flashing up and down as the shots are hit and grazing happens/etc.

[Chill Observer]

Something like Double Spoiler scene 1-1 looks good as a tutorial level.

[CyberAngel]

To be fair, CAVE shmups usually do have a tutorial demonstration before starting the game, so it's not a bad idea.

Of course, fat chance ZUN will bother with something like that, so just go RTFM. Or consult wiki if you need some deeper details.

[Tengukami]

I mean... there's the wiki, and an in-game manual which is usually one of the first things to get translated by thcrap. If you start with zero experience with shmups whatsoever, it still won't take you long to figure out what Z, X and Shift do.

[shockdude]

I mean... there's the wiki, and an in-game manual which is usually one of the first things to get translated by thcrap. If you start with zero experience with shmups whatsoever, it still won't take you long to figure out what Z, X and Shift do.

The Shift key is easily the least intuitive control for non-shmup players. From my experience, very few people ever figure it out in-game; they learn about it from the wiki/manual/forums/Youtube comments. It's a trivial barrier to entry, but it's a barrier nonetheless.
This is a problem that also plagued Jigoku Kisetsukan, a Touhou clone on Steam. The developer had to add a hint about Focus in the Game Over screen if the player never used it.

[AzyWng]

The Shift key is easily the least intuitive control for non-shmup players. From my experience, very few people ever figure it out in-game

I can confirm this is true for at least one or two other players - I actually have a comment on Danbooru snipped - the poster didn't know about pausing or the use of focus until they looked up the wiki entry on malice cannon.

[Tengukami]

The Shift key is easily the least intuitive control for non-shmup players. From my experience, very few people ever figure it out in-game; they learn about it from the wiki/manual/forums/Youtube comments. It's a trivial barrier to entry, but it's a barrier nonetheless.
This is a problem that also plagued Jigoku Kisetsukan, a Touhou clone on Steam. The developer had to add a hint about Focus in the Game Over screen if the player never used it.

I didn't know Shift For Focus was a thing for a long time actually! Does one key warrant a tutorial though? That I doubt. I think a text manual covers it just fine.

[shockdude]

I didn't know Shift For Focus was a thing for a long time actually! Does one key warrant a tutorial though? That I doubt. I think a text manual covers it just fine.

Well yeah a text manual covers it fine, but video game players generally don't read game manuals unless someone tells them to. They expect the game to at least teach the essential controls - and Focus is very much an essential control of Touhou.
This does beg the question of whether ZUN should better conform to modern PC game standards, and I should be clear that I believe ZUN can do whatever he wants and not worry about all that.

But seriously a tutorial demo replay would be nice. At the very least, show people how to use Focus!

[Drake]

But in the demo replays ZUN already focuses plenty, which if nothing else shows you it exists. ZUN's demos might not be that great but at the very least they show some basic gameplay. In LoLK all of the basic mechanics are showcased, and the only thing really left unexplained there is that lives are gained through the chapter bonuses (because ZUN doesn't get any).

And again, clearly talking about previous games isn't even relevant anymore, because he can't change those. Meanwhile all recent games have the manual in-game and even available in the game over menu. I can see not reading a text manual outside of the game but come on; if you can't be bothered to even check the thing in-game that would inform you about basic controls, and need to be spoonfed them by having them intrusively shoved in your face, are you even worth the help? The whole reason some arcade games have demonstration pieces before the game is because by virtue of being coin-and-start they don't necessarily have such a manual to spare. This isn't even desirable due to the restart-heavy nature of the games.

[shockdude]

But in the demo replays ZUN already focuses plenty, which if nothing else shows you it exists. ZUN's demos might not be that great but at the very least they show some basic gameplay. In LoLK all of the basic mechanics are showcased, and the only thing really left unexplained there is that lives are gained through the chapter bonuses (because ZUN doesn't get any).

And again, clearly talking about previous games isn't even relevant anymore, because he can't change those. Meanwhile all recent games have the manual in-game and even available in the game over menu. I can see not reading a text manual outside of the game but come on; if you can't be bothered to even check the thing in-game that would inform you about basic controls, and need to be spoonfed them by having them intrusively shoved in your face, are you even worth the help? The whole reason some arcade games have demonstration pieces before the game is because by virtue of being coin-and-start they don't necessarily have such a manual to spare. This isn't even desirable due to the restart-heavy nature of the games.

I agree that ZUN's demo replays are neat and useful. I copied the first few moments of the EoSD Stage 4 demo replay in my own playthroughs. They are less useful when you don't know the controls of the game.
I agree that there's nothing that can really be done about the older games. It is pretty ironic how people tend to recommend starting with the older games in spite of the conveniences of the newer games.
I agree that the in-game manual is great, but I'm pretty pessimistic about the number of people who actually read it :p.
The arcade comparison isn't fair. A proper Touhou arcade cabinet would feature a joystick and three big buttons, each of which would have their functions clearly labeled. New players would quickly learn the basic controls just from looking at the cabinet. Touhou on PC does not have the convenience of labeled controls, which is how we get the problem of players not figuring out how to Focus on their own.

Again, knowing how to Focus is a trivial barrier to entry, but a barrier nonetheless.

[Drake]

The arcade comparison isn't fair. A proper Touhou arcade cabinet would feature a joystick and three big buttons, each of which would have their functions clearly labeled. New players would quickly learn the basic controls just from looking at the cabinet. Touhou on PC does not have the convenience of labeled controls, which is how we get the problem of players not figuring out how to Focus on their own.

Definite point that limited buttons more easily afford what the controls are (or that they exist), but arcade cabinets often don't have labeled controls either, and too many buttons is not uncommon.

What are you recommending though? If people don't take a look at the in-game manual, don't change controls, and don't watch the demo replays either, you're mostly left with more intrusive methods and flashing signs before you start playing. Showing a particular control scheme doesn't even work well because the games aren't limited to keyboards and more often refer to Button 123.

Having to cater to this degree just seems dumb to me in general. It's one thing if a game has a bunch of controls and doesn't have any clear way to figure out what things do, but when these methods of informing the player do exist but people just don't look because reasons, it feels like the dumb is winning. I can't see any reasonable conversation being anything other than "You know you can press Shift to focus" -> "I didn't know I could do that" -> "did you read the manual or anything that would inform you of how to play" -> "no" -> "well that's your fault then isn't it".

[shockdude]

Having to cater to this degree just seems dumb to me in general. It's one thing if a game has a bunch of controls and doesn't have any clear way to figure out what things do, but when these methods of informing the player do exist but people just don't look because reasons, it feels like the dumb is winning. I can't see any reasonable conversation being anything other than "You know you can press Shift to focus" -> "I didn't know I could do that" -> "did you read the manual or anything that would inform you of how to play" -> "no" -> "well that's your fault then isn't it".

Dumb won a long time ago. It is good game design to cater to people who don't look for controls, because that is what players expect. They should know that the Focus key exists at the very least.
There are lots of things that can be done in addition to the manual with varying levels of dumbness. Better demo replays. One-time skippable tutorial section. Unskippable 5-minute cutscene. Teaching default keyboard controls is good enough; lots of devs do just that, and anyone with a gamepad knows how to remap buttons anyway.
There will always be that guy who cannot figure out the controls regardless of what the dev (or community) does, but who cares about him.

[Sedrife]

Even for a lot of Touhou doujin games, there are buttons that you need to refer the manual to, otherwise you'll have no clue.  Sometimes, even having a Tutorial is not enough. 

ZUN had a tutorial-esque for spin-off games like Double Spoiler and Impossible Spell Card, so I think he's in a good standing of being considerate when he feels that there's a lot of change in the mechanism.

[Drake]

Those games being scene-based is what affords them tutorials as well. With the main games being able to quickly start and restart whole runs is important in making it feel clean, whereas in those side games you can just move on forever. If you look at PoFV, for example, there isn't a tutorial despite arguably being the game needing one the most.

If anything looking at how he implements them in the side games would indicate how he might do it if he decided to add them more generally. Once you launch the game a tutorial would play on the first start (and be skippable), but after that even if you return to the title screen it wouldn't play again. That would be a decent middle ground.